Water guns banned, REAL guns, OK....

[brianlux]

Great points, Halifax. We really would all be better off if we used our minds more than weapons. That's exactly what got me through those five dangerous situations I mentioned above.

Thinking and acting clearly also relate to survival as a group. Richard Heinberg made this point very clearly in his book, Power Down. In it, he talks about preservationist communities as opposed to survivalist communities. In preservationist communities people work together to make things happen. The Pearl Jam Forum is often a preservationist community. We've all seen good things happen in helping others here. In survivalist communities, people are "regarded with suspicion and envy by others" and are "perpetually on the defensive".

Let's face it, we're not going to get rid of guns. On the other hand, if we learn to use our minds and work toward preservation rather than mere survival, there will be fewer needs for gun. Maybe we'll even do what Jimi Hendrix suggested: "Instead of, you know, umm, all these cats walking down the street with guns and hatred we maybe we could , ahh, all walk down the street with electric guitars.. somethin' like this, ahhh... one, two, three..."

[catefrances]

just cause you know how to use a gun doesnt mean youll have the nerve to pull the trigger. you know what im saying?

If it is a matter of survival .... you pull the trigger....
basic.

Responsible licensed owners of guns know what they are for.
They have hours of training and practice.
Many are former victims or their loved ones are victims.
Responsible licensed owners are ready to shoot and more and more people
are protecting themselves, their loved ones and their property.
It's about time.

my property is not worth shooting someone over.

[pandora]

Oh, and another thing. I carry a concealed fire extinguisher so look out people!

yeah I guess it did go over some peoples heads

This comparing Canada and the US really?
apples to oranges and let's throw in France really what a joke

Does Canada have an illegal immigrant problem, does Canada have the sheer numbers
we do, our population is over 10 times as many maybe more
does Canada have the poor and over crowded and the minority population?
By the way I am a minority in Atlanta.
This is where crime is because of drugs, related illegal activity, lack of opportunity,
and where there is crime there are guns legal or otherwise.
The otherwise is the why there are so many legal gun owners.
The bad guys will always have guns we can be very sure of that.

This why you Brian can be opposed you don't have the crime Atlanta does
and the Canadians who come here and argue comparing their small country
with the US is kind of ridiculous.
I am happy for Canada it is much easier to manage 33 million then 313 million
but then again crime really knows no boundaries and those so smug to think
it can not happen to them are foolhardy, cause if it can strike 40 years ago
in a small city in Wisconsin it surely can and will happen anywhere.

Pandora, you may be right about my neck of the woods not having as much crime as yours but I've lived in and been in places that did. I lived in a neighborhood once where I heard people shooting each other. Did I have a gun? No. Did I need one? No. It was probably another domestic fight. Most killings are.

I was once forced by a very large aggressive man to give him a ride. He had me cornered in an empty laundromat. I gave him a ride. If I had tried to pull out a gun I might not be here to tell you this.

While working in as an R.A. in a dorm I had a guy hold a broom handle with a large nail strapped to it against my throat for five minutes because I gave his room inspection a 9 instead of a 10.. I talked him down. If I had tried to pull a out a gun on him do you think I would be here to tell you this?

I was in a rec room in a trailer park once and a guy came at me with a large screw drive because my dag had shit near his yard. If I had tried to pull a gun out he would have adjusted my innards with his screw driver and I wouldn't be here to tell you this. I apologized and went and cleaned up the mess.

I fell asleep on a bus once and woke up in a really fucking bad neighborhood and watched a guy rob another passenger and he looked at me and his eyes said, "If you make a move I'm going to fuck you up." I averted my eyes and remained calm. If I had reached for a gun while sitting with this guy towering over me would I be here to tell you this.

God damn it, don't tell me I need a fucking gun.

Did I tell you you needed a gun please don't tell me I don't !

I see you allowed crime to happen this is not good common sense in all cases.

This why crime is where it's at ... people are accepting it....
in fact all they do is bitch about it.

I believe in fighting back! I admire my neighbor for protecting his family
and helping to catch the ass wipes who terrorize law abiding people.
I guess you feel they should have submitted of course we can agree to disagree on that.

[pandora]

just cause you know how to use a gun doesnt mean youll have the nerve to pull the trigger. you know what im saying?

If it is a matter of survival .... you pull the trigger....
basic.

Responsible licensed owners of guns know what they are for.
They have hours of training and practice.
Many are former victims or their loved ones are victims.
Responsible licensed owners are ready to shoot and more and more people
are protecting themselves, their loved ones and their property.
It's about time.

my property is not worth shooting someone over.

Yes it is because predators need to be stopped.
You are an enabler to crime and because of you property is stolen,
there are house invasions, elderly people are terrorized in their own homes.
Where is your heart for the victims oh they are with the victimizers I see.

People who rob and terrorize and prey on hard working people
or weaker individuals in society do not belong here.

I guess you can accept crime I can not, I will fight back!

[pandora]

It is a fact here many women are carrying guns in their purses, I don't own a gun
personally but if I had to be alone in certain areas of town after dark
I would definitely carry.

Better safe than sorry...

Personally, all things considered, I still think I'm way safer NOT carrying the gun.

Good for you you are a man ...
do you feel women should not carry a gun in their purses for defense?

[catefrances]

my property is not worth shooting someone over.

Yes it is because predators need to be stopped.
You are an enabler to crime and because of you property is stolen,
there are house invasions, elderly people are terrorized in their own homes.
Where is your heart for the victims oh they are with the victimizers I see.

People who rob and terrorize and prey on hard working people
or weaker individuals in society do not belong here.

I guess you can accept crime I can not, I will fight back!

theyre things pandora. they can all be replaced. a human life can not. i can see youre having great difficulty understanding where im coming from.... and how dare you insinuate i have no empathy for victims of crime. who the fuck are you to make that judgement? how exactly is me not having a gun enabling crime? i weep for a society that feels the need to arm itself as highly as the US seems to. but then again you live by the sword you die by the sword.. and i will not play their game... i will not be corralled into thinking i would be safer... that i would feel safer if i had a gun. i know myself and i know that wouldnt be the case.

[brianlux]

I see you allowed crime to happen this is not good common sense in all cases.

This why crime is where it's at ... people are accepting it....
in fact all they do is bitch about it.

I believe in fighting back! I admire my neighbor for protecting his family
and helping to catch the ass wipes who terrorize law abiding people.
I guess you feel they should have submitted of course we can agree to disagree on that.

Again, you make an assumption about me. What's with that? You've gotta be kidding- I allowed crime to happen? The rule of thumb around here is to not let things get personal but I'm going to risk my posting privileges to tell you here, on the forum, that I think you have a really bad habit of bating people. Don't make assumptions about me- like what it's like where I live or that I allowed crime to happen. Is this all just a game to you, Pandora? Do you really have nothing better to do than badger other people on this forum? Your troll like behavior is pathetic.

Sorry Mods. I respect whatever you decide.

Edit- I'm adding one more thing here. That incident with the robbery on the bus was very fucking traumatic for me. Don't tell me I allowed that to happen. Saying so is pure bullshit. A gun in that incident would have only made things worse.

[Hugh Freaking Dillon]

You are an enabler to crime and because of you property is stolen,

so it's the victim's fault now.

unbelievable.

[catefrances]

You are an enabler to crime and because of you property is stolen,

so it's the victim's fault now.

unbelievable.

sounds like the scooby doo defense doesnt it... if it wasnt for those pesky kids....


the risk someone takes when they enter a house is they DO NOT know whether or not the occupamts are armed with a firearm.. they do not know if the occupants are highly trained in martial arts.. they do not know what they might encounter. you enter my home you better be ready cause i will be.

[goingtoverona]

You guys make it sound so simple, all we have to do is ban guns or not let people carry conceal and we can end all of the gun violence. If the government came out today with a law that said carrying a concealed gun is now a crime, the only people that would affect are law abiding citizens, do you think a guy using a gun to rob someone or rob a bank gives a rats ass about carry conceal laws? Of course not, they would prefer people not carry because that's less of a chance of someone trying to stop them, and if ur answer to that is well lets ban all guns, then you are not very familiar with how supply and demand works.

Say the government banned all guns tomorrow, what does that accomplish? Criminals aren't going to be lining up to turn their guns in, only law abiding citizens would, I've seen a lot of arguments saying people shouldn't be allowed to defend themselves against armed criminals because it leads to more violence and that just boggles my mind. Arguing that we should just leave the guns with the criminals to prevent less people getting shot, in my opinion, is absolutely ridiculous.

[brianlux]

You guys make it sound so simple, all we have to do is ban guns or not let people carry conceal and we can end all of the gun violence. If the government came out today with a law that said carrying a concealed gun is now a crime, the only people that would affect are law abiding citizens, do you think a guy using a gun to rob someone or rob a bank gives a rats ass about carry conceal laws? Of course not, they would prefer people not carry because that's less of a chance of someone trying to stop them, and if ur answer to that is well lets ban all guns, then you are not very familiar with how supply and demand works.

Say the government banned all guns tomorrow, what does that accomplish? Criminals aren't going to be lining up to turn their guns in, only law abiding citizens would, I've seen a lot of arguments saying people shouldn't be allowed to defend themselves against armed criminals because it leads to more violence and that just boggles my mind. Arguing that we should just leave the guns with the criminals to prevent less people getting shot, in my opinion, is absolutely ridiculous.

Who made it sound simple? The process of reversing the propensity toward violence in America is no small task. Here, right here on this thread, is a chance to start doing that. To speak out against violence, to seek answers other than arming ourselves to the teeth. Did you read my post noting some of the ideas proposed by Richard Heinberg? Transforming a community and the mentality of its members away from mere survival to preservation is no small endeavor. But doesn't it make more sense than being like Yosemite Sams and Bugs trying to pull out the biggest six eight ten twelve twenty fifty hundred thousand million shooter?

[redrock]

I'm not going into a debate as to whether guns should be banned/more controlled, etc. and looking up statistics and all because that has been done ad nauseam in the numerous 'gun' threads.

What I am flabbergasted at are the propos held by some in this thread - quite shocking really....

If one chooses not to carry a gun for 'self defense' and may use reason or avoidance to get out of a 'situation', one is 'allowing' crime to happen, one is 'enabling' crime - causing it, one does not have empathy with the victims of crime but rather the criminal, etc.

Wow... even for the MT, this is quite low.

I've been speaking to a police officer friend of mine - was an officer in the US and in the UK. Been anywhere from a 'beat bobby', to detective, to special units, so quite a bit of experience. Asked him about his thoughts on 'carrying' and protecting one's self from crime, whether in the street or in the home. What he had to say was interesting (and note that it is not saying whether one should or not)...

More often than not, people who do carry a weapon for self defense (lay people - your 'average Joe') will not even be able to think about using their weapon when the time comes and, if they do think about it, won't be able to. More often than not, one is 'paralysed' in a sudden and traumatic situation (eg a mugging, staring down the barrel of a gun held by the mugger) and will not be able to function coherently. Or, even if one can think of the weapon, he/she cannot get to it for various reasons - reaction to surprise element not quick enough, physically unable to get to weapon (a purse being one of the worse places to keep a weapon), etc. Say one has his/her hands on the weapon, there are 'accidents' and the victim can shoot himself/herself as he/she pulls out the weapon from wherever it is, due to nerves (yep... the 'silly' shooting through the pocket/holster/purse). Shooting a target at the range with plenty of time to anticipate, think, aim, etc. is nothing like having to act in an instant in an unexpected and threatening situation.

This, I am told, is the same for those taking 'self defense' classes - most will not remember 'the moves' when push comes to shove.

When it comes to home defense - how 'lucky' will a homeowner be to find himself/herself with a loaded gun within reach at the same time as the intruder? 'Responsible' (as some called the licensed gun owner) will normally store their gun in a locked cupboard/cabinet with bullets stored elsewhere (how it should be - as we are regularly reminded in 'gun' threads). How does that work when one is surprised in one's own home? Or does one need a loaded gun in the open, available to all (kids included), in every room - just in case? Or do all the adults in the family need to carry at all times in the home? Best prevent - lock doors, windows, lights outside, etc.

Halifax had a long post mentioning the same kind of things.

A lot of crimes are opportunistic. Being ostentatious with flashy mobile phones, money, etc. will draw attention - prevention is the key.

The MIND is your best defense before the weapons, prevention, avoidance, assessing, knowing your capabilities and limits, etc.

Carrying a weapon thinking that you will be able to get yourself out of these kind of situations is a delusion for most. It's not a Hollywood film or a crime TV series where one keeps their nerves in dire circumstances, it's real life.

And as someone already said - things are just that - things. Not worth a life. A mobile phone, a watch, a ring.. all that can be replaced. A life can't - think it might be yours and not the criminal's we're talking about.

[brianlux]

I'm not going into a debate as to whether guns should be banned/more controlled, etc. and looking up statistics and all because that has been done ad nauseam in the numerous 'gun' threads.

What I am flabbergasted at are the propos held by some in this thread - quite shocking really....

If one chooses not to carry a gun for 'self defense' and may use reason or avoidance to get out of a 'situation', one is 'allowing' crime to happen, one is 'enabling' crime - causing it, one does not have empathy with the victims of crime but rather the criminal, etc.

Wow... even for the MT, this is quite low.

Thank you, redrock! I'm rather amazed and quite miffed myself. I suspect when I go into work this afternoon there will be wanted posters all over Main St:

WANTED
For allowing crime to happen:
brianlux

Warning, this man is unarmed
And should be considered
A danger to society.

[redrock]

At least you still have your sense of humour!

I am just so shocked that those 'accusations' have been made to a victim of crime as well (though I don't really see a 'victim' in you!)!

I note though that you have used your MIND in those situations, assessed the situation and did what was necessary.

[Hugh Freaking Dillon]

You guys make it sound so simple, all we have to do is ban guns or not let people carry conceal and we can end all of the gun violence. If the government came out today with a law that said carrying a concealed gun is now a crime, the only people that would affect are law abiding citizens, do you think a guy using a gun to rob someone or rob a bank gives a rats ass about carry conceal laws? Of course not, they would prefer people not carry because that's less of a chance of someone trying to stop them, and if ur answer to that is well lets ban all guns, then you are not very familiar with how supply and demand works.

Say the government banned all guns tomorrow, what does that accomplish? Criminals aren't going to be lining up to turn their guns in, only law abiding citizens would, I've seen a lot of arguments saying people shouldn't be allowed to defend themselves against armed criminals because it leads to more violence and that just boggles my mind. Arguing that we should just leave the guns with the criminals to prevent less people getting shot, in my opinion, is absolutely ridiculous.

no one, as Brian said, said it was simple. but the mindset needs to change. IF guns were made illegal, which it never will in the US, no, obviously that wouldn't make all the crooks show up with their guns to hand them over, but is that any reason NOT to make a law? because people won't follow it? that's absurd. if it becomes illegal to conceal and carry, then it makes it a crime for which people can be prosecuted, like they are in Canada and pretty much everywhere else in the world.

it makes gun crime a little less available. tack on another 10 years to an offence just for having a gun and bammo, you reduce gun crime.