Preventing kids from "objectionable" art

[DS1119]

@ DS1119 ^^^ O. M. G. i hate to laugh but now..that its over...

I laugth now but at the time . The child or the parents have yet to apoligize to this day.

OMG! Oww! I've had a couple of hernia repairs- I can kind of imagine what that felt like (but I don't wanna think about it! )

I had a couple in the store yesterday with their four or five year old daughter. The kid was going up and down a row of books shoving them around and I said, "Sweetheart, please don't do that- I'll just have to fix it all later." The mom just kind of shrugged but the dad made punching motions with his hand behind the kids back and had this weird creepy grin on his face. I just told the guy, "Not to worry, it's all good," because I was worried for the kid. Parents like that drive me nuts.

There's definately a line between discipline and abuse. My parents never punched me but when my Dad laid the pimp hand on my ass I knew I did wrong.

[riotgrl]

I think this has been an on-going dilemma for parents for many years. What's changed is the degree to which society sees things as objectionable or acceptable. My folks were very unhappy when the Beatles and Stones came along because it was all so different from what they new. By the time Jimi Hendrix arrived on the scene they were totally perplexed. And of course Elvis and his swinging hips started the whole mess.

I think if kids are brought up with openness, honesty and love they'll figure out what is ok and what is not and music in of itself won't change that in them.

brianlux, I think openness and honesty and love is exactly right! My parents (and my husband's parents too) tried to shield me from too much which just made me more curious about those very things.
I remember my parents flipping out when they heard AC/DC's Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap STill one of my favorite albums!

[StillHere]

To my memory, my Mom never hit me...
but she did something worse
well. she did 2 things worse

1. She gave me the silent treatment and I was usually not too sure of what thing I did that made her angry
and
2. she always said....Just wait until your father gets home!

And that was a good one...cuz even though my Dad was a nice nice man,
you didn't want to get on the wrong side of him

He used to take off his belt and snap it at us, and we knew we'd better behave
AND he had a bread board with 2 holes drilled in it that he used as a paddle
he called it Papa's Little Persuader
I had to be REALLY REALLY bad to get that....and usually I wasn't

SO..... this went on for years until I was about 14 or so .. and I started getting pretty unruly. I had found out about some of the things that were fun that i was not supposed to be doing ehhemmm
and I was hanging with the hippies and doing my thing..taking it easy, you can imagine
and not coming home when I was supposed to, stuff like that

so my dad, he got sick, and he was in the hospital for a while and lost a bunch of weight
(my dad was always mr. 5 x 5, 5 feet tall and 5 feet wide...he was soooo cute@!)

anyway....so my mom started with the wait until your father gets home

and she was roiling mad about whatever i can't remember

so dad comes home, she tells him all this stuff

he whips off his belt to snap it at me....

and his pants fell to his ankles!

he was standing there in his boxers with his mouth wide open

and i just couldn't help myself but to burst out laughing and laughing and laughing
OMG is was terrible
i knew i was gonna get it but i couldn't stop

AND...it never happened again

I didn't behave any better....he just never did that again (embarrassed himself to the max i guess)

instead he started walking down to the river bridge to New Hope where i would HAVE to walk on my way home from wherever I was over there...probably out in the woods smoking things

and meeting me there

this would be late at night and he had work at 6 am but he did it anyway

he would not say a word, just meet me there and walk the mile + home with me

i knew he was disappointed

and looking back now, i realize that he just wanted to be sure that i was safe

i was his little girl

man...the things we learn when we have kids of our own

so..that got off topic

[green mountain man]

My dad spanked me one time.
I got caught shoplifting.
I went to a record store and swiped the Beatle's single Strawberry Fields.
I got away with that, but went to WT Grants and stole one of those wooden paddles with a ball attached.
I would have got away with it, but I had the immediate need to play with it right in front of the store.

[musicismylife78]

i also think its about knowing your kids. i was exposed to nirvana and grunge early on, and my teen years werent reckless, never did drugs or drank or smoked. i think what my parents and alot of parents miss is the idea that older kids work through issues via music and art. and part of working through that is dealing with uncomfortable issues. being a teen isnt easy. hell being a 20 something has been hell. But to say "the problem is the music" or the movies or the books i think is ludicrous.

Something like Siamese Dream or Mellon Collie, thats some heavy stuff. or Kids or Kidulthood the movie. These are heavy movies with some objectionable stuff. But i also think it can be, and alot of times is an essential part of a teen or young persons life. I know im not the only person who works through issues via my own and others art.

[riotgrl]

LOL!! I just spat my coffee! What a little bugger! I don't believe in smacking but I tell you what I really felt like belting that kid yesterday. He came back and actually pushed her too. It was so sad because SHE said "oooops sorry" poor little monkey.

I think my parent's smacked my weekly when I was a kid.

Me too! I used to say " oh yeah, that didn't hurt at all" and run up to my room before I got another one!

My mom always spanked us with that paddle that had the ball attached with a rubber band - remember those? Of course, it didn't hurt and we would laugh and tell her that and she would get SO mad! Just wait until your father gets home - and he would whip off that leather belt and snap it at us. Of course, I only remember him using it one time and that is all it took!

[musicismylife78]

It always seems parents are forever worrying about the effect the media, or books, movies, art, music has on kids. And of course, id be the first to admit, the media is scary in many ways, the stuff shown to kids is frightening in many ways. but if we are talking older kids, i have never really seen the problem. Parents have never understood what art means to the younger generation. Our grandparents did the same with elvis and the beatles and the stones and hippie culture and music. Seems like thats the way its always been. But alot of times the stuff parents find objectionable is laughable decades later. I also think the ojectionable content is often a smokescreen for critics and parents to not deal with the issues. Yes, alot of mainstream rap is sexist, homophobic, materialistic, and is violent and has explicit lyrics. The issue never gets to the heart of the matter of course. the conversation never is "why is this music so attractive to people, what is at its core, why is it an expression of young black rage". the question always focuses on the objectionable content, banning it, censoring it, and preventing kids from listening or seeing it. That solves nothing. For one, hip hop isnt going anywhere, its here to stay, and two, the real issues of socioeconomic injustice, racial inequality, poverty, the justice system, sexism, homophobia none of that is ever broached.

I also think its healthy and imperitive for young kids to have an outlet, something to cling to, to have some comfort. To know healthy ways of dealing with the anger they will feel or sadness or whatever.

I think growing up now is tough. i dont envy the next generation. Its brutal out there. I think its important to support an outlet for older kids to express and come to terms with who they are, and the world around them. art is a major way this is done.

[musicismylife78]

i was kept from a lot of things that my mom found objectionable when i was a kid
not that it was even bad, its just that she didn't like it.. or she didn't like certain people
bill cosby for one...not bad at all for a kid...but she didn't like him so i wasn't allowed to listen
the Beatles...no way...don't ask me why she objected to them but she did...then when i was a teenager she started humming Beatles songs while cooking dinner each night..go figure
she probably heard something from one of her friends and didn't really know one way or the other
a lot of stuff like that
meanwhile she and her friends read playboy... for the stories.. i never quite figured that one out

anyway, no i don't agree with keeping kids from art unless it promotes violence or sex beyond their years (for instance movies that depict really nasty gorey violence....it depends on what/how or movies with explicit sex in them).

BUT i do have to say that when my own daughter was about 10 years old...and maybe 11, 12..around there...she was going around singing top of her lungs...Nirvana's "Rape Me" ...she had NO IDEA what she was saying. None at all. So I was left with..explain rape to a 10 year old or forbid her to listen to that music. Needless to say, I ended up explaining...in ten year old terms, what the words meant, and she stopped singing it, at least out loud..until she got older that is

I would rather explain objectionable things in terms that a child can relate to and have them decide not to sing it, watch it, whatever, on their own. In my experience, it works out much better that way.

still here-
thats exactly what i was doing, saying the same exact thing. I didnt know what it meant either. Funny thing was, this proves my point. no parent is going to investigate further. They hear their kid say that, and they ban it, or punish, or ground the child. Rape Me, the song, certainly wasnt promoting rape of anyone, it was an explicitly pro-feminist, anti rape song. the fact my parents, and i would assume most parents in 1993 didnt investigate further about the context of it, thats troubling to me and is emblematic of the problem with banning kids from accessing objectionable art. That was my whole point about hip hop. certainly, theres stuff even as a 28 year old, i find disturbing about hip hop. but to ban a kid from listening to it i think is outrageous and pointless. It also is distressing because it assumes art serves only one "purpose". That if its objectionale and explicit then it is bad and that negates ever other aspect of it. Hip hop has major problems and issues, but theres many positives as well. Listening to Tupac or Biggie for example, the main customer of hip hop a kid from the suburbs who is white, may learn about a reality they dont see often, or inequality, or race relations.

The idea that because Rape Me had shocking lyrics that made Nirvana bad is something i obviously still am angry at my parents about. It wasnt exactly a secret Kurt and Nirvana were political, progay, pro feminist, pro choice.
I just feel and felt the act of banning of music, of any art, just is so naive and silly.

[musicismylife78]

Generally, the only thing I protect my kids from is things that are too violent. Guns, war games, graphic depictions of violence etc...

I am about three years away from the sex questions, so I will deal with that when the time comes.

But I would have to say that I wont be playing Rape Me near my kids anytime soon. Same with blood.While the kids do like rock, I try to keep it upbeat, like rocking in the free world!

i certainly understand where you are coming from. and i think protecting a child's childhood is so important. seems like kids have to grow up so young these days. they have no childhood. that said, for older kids, my view on it, is its important for them to have albums or movies, or books, that get them through the troubled times they will encounter. not to mention, the fact that our world is pretty screwed up. racism, sexism, violence, guns, war, they all are real, and i think art can show the consequences of those things, but also serve as an outlet, even just by watching the movies. Remember Fight Club. Graphic as hell movie. The whole point was that as a result of all this crap going on in the world people need to get that aggression out. id rather see kids deal with it through art than in a negative manner.

i also think theres nothing that beats having a piece of art to call your own, even if it is made by someone else. Billy Corgan saying "when your life is so so dreary: dream", or "nobody no where understands anything about me, or all my dreams lost at sea". I can imagine those two lyrics alone were sustaining and life rafts for alot of people. i think we underestimate the positive power and the significance these albums have, and overemphasize the negative. I do think these things, these albums or movies, or books pull us through. help us, heal us. they help and heal people of all ages, kids are no different in this reguard.

[StillHere]

i was kept from a lot of things that my mom found objectionable when i was a kid
not that it was even bad, its just that she didn't like it.. or she didn't like certain people
bill cosby for one...not bad at all for a kid...but she didn't like him so i wasn't allowed to listen
the Beatles...no way...don't ask me why she objected to them but she did...then when i was a teenager she started humming Beatles songs while cooking dinner each night..go figure
she probably heard something from one of her friends and didn't really know one way or the other
a lot of stuff like that
meanwhile she and her friends read playboy... for the stories.. i never quite figured that one out

anyway, no i don't agree with keeping kids from art unless it promotes violence or sex beyond their years (for instance movies that depict really nasty gorey violence....it depends on what/how or movies with explicit sex in them).

BUT i do have to say that when my own daughter was about 10 years old...and maybe 11, 12..around there...she was going around singing top of her lungs...Nirvana's "Rape Me" ...she had NO IDEA what she was saying. None at all. So I was left with..explain rape to a 10 year old or forbid her to listen to that music. Needless to say, I ended up explaining...in ten year old terms, what the words meant, and she stopped singing it, at least out loud..until she got older that is

I would rather explain objectionable things in terms that a child can relate to and have them decide not to sing it, watch it, whatever, on their own. In my experience, it works out much better that way.

still here-
thats exactly what i was doing, saying the same exact thing. I didnt know what it meant either. Funny thing was, this proves my point. no parent is going to investigate further. They hear their kid say that, and they ban it, or punish, or ground the child. Rape Me, the song, certainly wasnt promoting rape of anyone, it was an explicitly pro-feminist, anti rape song. the fact my parents, and i would assume most parents in 1993 didnt investigate further about the context of it, thats troubling to me and is emblematic of the problem with banning kids from accessing objectionable art. That was my whole point about hip hop. certainly, theres stuff even as a 28 year old, i find disturbing about hip hop. but to ban a kid from listening to it i think is outrageous and pointless. It also is distressing because it assumes art serves only one "purpose". That if its objectionale and explicit then it is bad and that negates ever other aspect of it. Hip hop has major problems and issues, but theres many positives as well. Listening to Tupac or Biggie for example, the main customer of hip hop a kid from the suburbs who is white, may learn about a reality they dont see often, or inequality, or race relations.

The idea that because Rape Me had shocking lyrics that made Nirvana bad is something i obviously still am angry at my parents about. It wasnt exactly a secret Kurt and Nirvana were political, progay, pro feminist, pro choice.
I just feel and felt the act of banning of music, of any art, just is so naive and silly.

never said nirvana was bad or that the song was bad...but it is not a good idea for a 10 year old to go around singing rape me..loudly...all the time when she has no idea what she is saying. i knew about the song, i listened to nirvana, pj, rhcp, cc, sg etc at the time, so i was not in the dark. just saying, some things are appropriate, and some things are not. she was not banned from the music, but that particular song, she didn't need to be singing. see what i mean?

[musicismylife78]

i sort of see your point, and plus you have a daughter, so its a very real issue of importance. Rape certainly is a major issue. that said, the point of music is to sing it. bands dont put out albums to not have them mean anything to the listener. when we like music we sing it. Sounds like you chose a different path, talking about the issue raised by the lyrics, and talking with your daughter. i think thats fine. my issue was the all out banning of the music. i had my in utero album taken away for singing those lyrics. kurt raised some important issues in his music. that song was no exception. Discussions could have been had. But they werent in my case. I dont get the sense things have changed in 2012 with parents of older kids now either. I doubt my parents were the last parents to ban objectionable art and music. I doubt many parents these days think in terms of context, so if they hear a rapper swearing or being obscene they may not want their child listening to it, and then miss out on some of the songs on the album that deal with important issues and that are empowering. Or they miss the intent of the artist. Ive mentioned this before but ive had friends when Colbert started his show, who thought he was a real republican, that his show was a straight up non comedic show. I think the same thing exists in music sometimes. just because an artist raises certain objectionable and obscene things in their music doesnt mean they agree with those things. Sexism, homophobia, materialism, war, poverty, violence are unfortunately real issues, the fact they appear in alot of art, i dont think thats a coincidence. We operate in the world we inhabit. I want a world of no war, nonviolence, peace, love, equality, community. To expect people, artists, to not deal in that reality is something that is asking too much.

I also remember my parents upset with the lyrics to Loser. I never had that album as a kid, but they werent happy and didnt get it. Beck obviously wasnt promoting what he was talking about. But what parent actually thinks about that? They unfortunately dont. I think most people react without thinking. if it talks about this or that its not for kids of any age. And by extention thats saying that all of it is bad.

Another album that got taken away was Superunknown. I was into grunge as i said. My parents seemed to think by extention all music that fit that bill was obscene. Are there intense themes on Superunknown and In Utero and Ten? Absolutely. But the banning of it, was ridiculous