Screwed Up Education System

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Teachers should be held to a higher standard than other professions because it is so hard for them to be fired for poor performance. I HAVE to be union employee and am disgusted by my co-workers on a daily basis. The union protects the poor performers much more than the positve hard working ones. Unfortunately for everyone that means bad teachers get to keep their jobs for quite a long time as long as they do the MINIMUM required not to get fired. That just seems wrong. They are public employees more or less and that gives the right to people to complain more than most other professions. I don't know of one profession I have had where I was not held accountable for my performance. If kids do great, then perfect the teacher gets rewards and accolades, but if the kids do poorly they talk about the underfunded schools and how hard their job is. Poor you. it is never the teachers fault. They should be held accountable for how their kids perform. I am not saying tie their pay to how their kids do as far as grades go, but there should be an improvement in every class room as far as testable knowledge. one kid can not care and screw off, but on average a whole class should improve or the teacher needs to change something up and be held accountable if that trend continues.

And what if the whole class is filled with kids who don't care and screw off?

it is the job of the teacher to not have that. Simple enough, if the kids don't care it is the job of the educators to reach out and grab them. You cannot get through life worrying about what ifs...Kids need tachers who won't let that stop them. If the people don't want to give that much effort they should choose a different profession.

I don't feel like your sense of what all teachers should be doing is really grounded in reality for all teachers.

Let me tell you about my mom's class: My mom teaches high school special ed and, because she handles them best, gets many of the behaviorly disordered and emotionally disturbed kids, as well as kids who just have major learning disabilities. It's nothing short of a miracle that her kids generally improve. She gets all kinds of students with all different kinds of learning disabilities in one class together, so there is no specific teaching method that can be used for the whole class.

She deals with kids who are violent, who are in gangs, who threaten her, who start fights in her classroom, who are kicked out of other schools, who are serial child molesters, who murder people, and who then call her from prison to say she's the best teacher they ever had. She deals with kids who miss school on a regular basis because they are homeless, pregnant, high, apathetic, too poor to get a ride when they miss the bus, have to work to support their parents/siblings/children, etc. She deals with kids who regularly come to class completely high but come to school to sell drugs. She deals with kids who are bounced around from foster home to foster home, who are rarely able to participate in any sports team or extracurricular activity, and who are ridiculed by the rest of the student body for being in special ed. And these are just their social problems that affect their education - they still have the myriad learning disabilities that got them put in her class in the first place.

When kids are dealing with these social issues, they are much less able to focus and learn. (Remember Maslow's heirarchy of needs? Remember Ed's story about dropping out of school because the teachers couldn't understand that he was falling asleep in class because he was up late working to pay his bills?) Because she knows this - and because she loves the kids and knows that they need to know it and trust her before they will learn from her - my mom helps them get pregnancy tests and prenatal care and throws them baby showers. She gives them rides home from school and gives them and their parents rides to work. She uses her last bit of money to buy them food when they can't afford to eat. She spends her prep periods and after school time listening to & helping kids who just turned 18 and are being kicked out of their foster homes, who don't know how to handle their parents' drug addiction, who are too afraid to mingle with the other kids at lunch or ride the buses home, or who just need extra help with their homework. She even gives some of the kids her home phone number and they call her at night, on weekends, over the summers, and long after they have graduated when they find themselves in situations that they don't know how to handle, with no one they can turn to for support.

And in between all of this, she must teach the kids. She must ensure that every single one of them progresses at a standardized rate, despite their non-standard abilities and situations. She must meet the goals set by people who have never taught special ed and face the judement of people who have never taught at all.

So, on behalf of my mom & all the other hard-working teachers out there in reality, I take offense to your suggestion that teachers whose classes are filled with kids who don't care and who screw off are simply not putting forth a good enough effort and should choose another profession. Actually, the more I think about it, the more offended I become.

[mikepegg44]

I don't feel like your sense of what all teachers should be doing is really grounded in reality for all teachers.

Let me tell you about my mom's class: My mom teaches high school special ed and, because she handles them best, gets many of the behaviorly disordered and emotionally disturbed kids, as well as kids who just have major learning disabilities. It's nothing short of a miracle that her kids generally improve. She gets all kinds of students with all different kinds of learning disabilities in one class together, so there is no specific teaching method that can be used for the whole class.

She deals with kids who are violent, who are in gangs, who threaten her, who start fights in her classroom, who are kicked out of other schools, who are serial child molesters, who murder people, and who then call her from prison to say she's the best teacher they ever had. She deals with kids who miss school on a regular basis because they are homeless, pregnant, high, apathetic, too poor to get a ride when they miss the bus, have to work to support their parents/siblings/children, etc. She deals with kids who regularly come to class completely high but come to school to sell drugs. She deals with kids who are bounced around from foster home to foster home, who are rarely able to participate in any sports team or extracurricular activity, and who are ridiculed by the rest of the student body for being in special ed. And these are just their social problems that affect their education - they still have the myriad learning disabilities that got them put in her class in the first place.

When kids are dealing with these social issues, they are much less able to focus and learn. (Remember Maslow's heirarchy of needs? Remember Ed's story about dropping out of school because the teachers couldn't understand that he was falling asleep in class because he was up late working to pay his bills?) Because she knows this - and because she loves the kids and knows that they need to know it and trust her before they will learn from her - my mom helps them get pregnancy tests and prenatal care and throws them baby showers. She gives them rides home from school and gives them and their parents rides to work. She uses her last bit of money to buy them food when they can't afford to eat. She spends her prep periods and after school time listening to & helping kids who just turned 18 and are being kicked out of their foster homes, who don't know how to handle their parents' drug addiction, who are too afraid to mingle with the other kids at lunch or ride the buses home, or who just need extra help with their homework. She even gives some of the kids her home phone number and they call her at night, on weekends, over the summers, and long after they have graduated when they find themselves in situations that they don't know how to handle, with no one they can turn to for support.

And in between all of this, she must teach the kids. She must ensure that every single one of them progresses at a standardized rate, despite their non-standard abilities and situations. She must meet the goals set by people who have never taught special ed and face the judement of people who have never taught at all.

So, on behalf of my mom & all the other hard-working teachers out there in reality, I take offense to your suggestion that teachers whose classes are filled with kids who don't care and who screw off are simply not putting forth a good enough effort and should choose another profession. Actually, the more I think about it, the more offended I become.

fair enough, but your example is an extreme. I cannot and will not believe that the majority of class rooms are at all like the one you describe. People like your mom obviously aren't the problem. I think most people in America would love a system where good teachers are given pay for performance to some degree and are certainly willing to pay teachers who are better at what they do more money. This was the original point I was making to answer your question about why people feel they can complain more about teachers than other professions.
If teachers were rewarded for hard work, don't you think more would do that hard work? But they aren't. And because of that there needs to be a standard that shows that kids are improving. If they aren't, the entire school district needs to be held accoutable and that includes the teachers. It sounds to me like your mom gets them when they are older, what about the kindergarten age? what about when teachers there are apathetic or don't take the time to help kids through grades 1, 2, 3 etc? Those teachers should be held accountable too, and there is more than one way to evaluate kids performances. It isn't simply grades. But right now that has nothing to do with their pay. I blame the teachers union much more than the individual teachers for that. they are just working in the system they are in.
Answer me this, what other job do you know of where you get to not be fired based on job performance or lack there of? Tenure is the biggest joke ever played by a union.

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fair enough, but your example is an extreme. I cannot and will not believe that the majority of class rooms are at all like the one you describe. People like your mom obviously aren't the problem. I think most people in America would love a system where good teachers are given pay for performance to some degree and are certainly willing to pay teachers who are better at what they do more money. This was the original point I was making to answer your question about why people feel they can complain more about teachers than other professions.
If teachers were rewarded for hard work, don't you think more would do that hard work? But they aren't. And because of that there needs to be a standard that shows that kids are improving. If they aren't, the entire school district needs to be held accoutable and that includes the teachers. It sounds to me like your mom gets them when they are older, what about the kindergarten age? what about when teachers there are apathetic or don't take the time to help kids through grades 1, 2, 3 etc? Those teachers should be held accountable too, and there is more than one way to evaluate kids performances. It isn't simply grades. But right now that has nothing to do with their pay. I blame the teachers union much more than the individual teachers for that. they are just working in the system they are in.
Answer me this, what other job do you know of where you get to not be fired based on job performance or lack there of? Tenure is the biggest joke ever played by a union.

I also don't believe and haven't said that my example represents the majority of classrooms - but I think it represents much more than you seem to think. Of course it would be great for teachers to be rewarded for their hard work. But I hear much more criticism of teachers and calls for their jobs than I hear praise for teachers and calls for raises and appreciation. The attitude is "Our education system sucks, so it must be the teachers' fault and we should fire those damn lazy teachers!" It should be "We value our education system and our teachers and will work to make sure they have all the resources and support they need to do a good job." Where's the support for teachers?? There is none. And I think there would be even less without the unions.

You say teachers would work harder if they were paid more, but I would suggest that they are already working as hard as is humanly possible and what they need is social support, not to be told to work harder. Though they should certainly be paid more for the work they're already doing, no amount of salary will magically transform students' social barriers to education. As someone has already eloquently pointed out, the same teacher doing the same work can be viewed as great at one school and horrible at another, based on the financial and social resources of that school and community. You say that if standards aren't being met, the school district and the teachers should be held accountable. I submit to you that it's society, community, government, etc. that should be held accountable. We must create an environment in which our kids will be most likely to thrive - and that means addressing social issues like poverty, drugs, violence, teen pregnancy, and - it's worth repeating - poverty.

Yes, I think it's harder to shape kids once they're teenagers. But even regarding kindergarten, it's hard for kids to learn when they're hungry, when they don't have parents home at night to help them with their homework, when they don't always have reliable transportation to school, when they're worried about their parents being deported, when their school has more limited resources than schools in wealthier neighborhoods, etc.

Regarding job performance, I think you're confusing this with outcomes. It's kind of like the difference between a sales person who is paid on commission and one who is not. Teachers, like everyone else, get fired if they don't do their jobs properly. They have to do the work that is required of them, including teaching, doing lesson plans, working with kids individually, meeting with parents, etc. People come to their classrooms and watch them teach and evaluate them on this. They must create & teach lesson plans that meet the standards and benchmarks of the state. They must turn in individual education plans, grades, etc. Just because they are not evaluated as much on the final product of all their hard work doesn't mean they don't work hard or are not evaluated. So, yes, I can think of plenty of jobs - most, in fact - where people are not evaluated based on final outcomes such as grades or sales or whatever. I think firing teachers based on the grades of their students would be like firing doctors based on the health of their patients. (Yes, I realize you said it's not just grades, but by grades I mean such outcomes in general.)

Let me ask you this: What are YOU going to do to support teachers and students in your community, city, state, or country? How are YOU pitching in to solve this education crisis?

[mikepegg44]

fair enough, but your example is an extreme. I cannot and will not believe that the majority of class rooms are at all like the one you describe. People like your mom obviously aren't the problem. I think most people in America would love a system where good teachers are given pay for performance to some degree and are certainly willing to pay teachers who are better at what they do more money. This was the original point I was making to answer your question about why people feel they can complain more about teachers than other professions.
If teachers were rewarded for hard work, don't you think more would do that hard work? But they aren't. And because of that there needs to be a standard that shows that kids are improving. If they aren't, the entire school district needs to be held accoutable and that includes the teachers. It sounds to me like your mom gets them when they are older, what about the kindergarten age? what about when teachers there are apathetic or don't take the time to help kids through grades 1, 2, 3 etc? Those teachers should be held accountable too, and there is more than one way to evaluate kids performances. It isn't simply grades. But right now that has nothing to do with their pay. I blame the teachers union much more than the individual teachers for that. they are just working in the system they are in.
Answer me this, what other job do you know of where you get to not be fired based on job performance or lack there of? Tenure is the biggest joke ever played by a union.

I also don't believe and haven't said that my example represents the majority of classrooms - but I think it represents much more than you seem to think. Of course it would be great for teachers to be rewarded for their hard work. But I hear much more criticism of teachers and calls for their jobs than I hear praise for teachers and calls for raises and appreciation. The attitude is "Our education system sucks, so it must be the teachers' fault and we should fire those damn lazy teachers!" It should be "We value our education system and our teachers and will work to make sure they have all the resources and support they need to do a good job." Where's the support for teachers?? There is none. And I think there would be even less without the unions.

You say teachers would work harder if they were paid more, but I would suggest that they are already working as hard as is humanly possible and what they need is social support, not to be told to work harder. Though they should certainly be paid more for the work they're already doing, no amount of salary will magically transform students' social barriers to education. As someone has already eloquently pointed out, the same teacher doing the same work can be viewed as great at one school and horrible at another, based on the financial and social resources of that school and community. You say that if standards aren't being met, the school district and the teachers should be held accountable. I submit to you that it's society, community, government, etc. that should be held accountable. We must create an environment in which our kids will be most likely to thrive - and that means addressing social issues like poverty, drugs, violence, teen pregnancy, and - it's worth repeating - poverty.

Yes, I think it's harder to shape kids once they're teenagers. But even regarding kindergarten, it's hard for kids to learn when they're hungry, when they don't have parents home at night to help them with their homework, when they don't always have reliable transportation to school, when they're worried about their parents being deported, when their school has more limited resources than schools in wealthier neighborhoods, etc.

Regarding job performance, I think you're confusing this with outcomes. It's kind of like the difference between a sales person who is paid on commission and one who is not. Teachers, like everyone else, get fired if they don't do their jobs properly. They have to do the work that is required of them, including teaching, doing lesson plans, working with kids individually, meeting with parents, etc. People come to their classrooms and watch them teach and evaluate them on this. They must create & teach lesson plans that meet the standards and benchmarks of the state. They must turn in individual education plans, grades, etc. Just because they are not evaluated as much on the final product of all their hard work doesn't mean they don't work hard or are not evaluated. So, yes, I can think of plenty of jobs - most, in fact - where people are not evaluated based on final outcomes such as grades or sales or whatever. I think firing teachers based on the grades of their students would be like firing doctors based on the health of their patients. (Yes, I realize you said it's not just grades, but by grades I mean such outcomes in general.)

Let me ask you this: What are YOU going to do to support teachers and students in your community, city, state, or country? How are YOU pitching in to solve this education crisis?

my point was more towards the idea that teachers salaries are not structured based on performance. That is a HUGE drain in the funds for a school that could otherwise be spent on books and other supplies and learning tools. That is one thing I would do. Give pay to people who earn it. People always work harder when they can get a raise based on their own work and not based on some silly step system. 3 years to tenure in MN. That is it. After tenure they can jsut about fart in students faces(not literally) for a fiar amount of money if they want. Do I think the majority are poor teachers, the answer is no.

As far as what I do. I offer during the long hockey season here in MN to run study groups with my kids throughout the season. I take practice time and move it off the ice and into a parent's basement and help the kids get their homework done. It serves two purposes for me. It builds team unity but it also helps the kids pick up on things they never would have had they not been asked to teach it to there friends. Not all my kids go to the same schools, some go to great schools, some not so great, but they all have one thing in common, homework. And we as a team make sure everyone's homework is done. I have also started my application into the Big brother program. I was awakened by my younger brother who runs youth programs to just how dire it is for some kids and I want to help.
AS far as teachers go, I just want the goods ones to be rewarded and the bad ones to not be. And I will not apologize for that.
To go to your sales reference...if you have ever worked a draw based commission sales job you would know that you only get paid when you get results. Sales aren't there, sorry you are outta luck, better go get them. I feel the same way about teachers...Students aren't learning for whatever reason, sorry better go get them. The ones that do should be handsomely rewarded with big time salaries. The ones who don't or refuse to go get the kids that need them the most shouldn't be rewarded with the exact same pay based on what the union negotiated. That is where all our money goes. Roughly half of MN's state budget goes to education, are you telling me that it isn't enough? could it possibly be that there are teachers and administrators who line their pockets while not producing?

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my point was more towards the idea that teachers salaries are not structured based on performance. That is a HUGE drain in the funds for a school that could otherwise be spent on books and other supplies and learning tools. That is one thing I would do. Give pay to people who earn it. People always work harder when they can get a raise based on their own work and not based on some silly step system. 3 years to tenure in MN. That is it. After tenure they can jsut about fart in students faces(not literally) for a fiar amount of money if they want. Do I think the majority are poor teachers, the answer is no.

As far as what I do. I offer during the long hockey season here in MN to run study groups with my kids throughout the season. I take practice time and move it off the ice and into a parent's basement and help the kids get their homework done. It serves two purposes for me. It builds team unity but it also helps the kids pick up on things they never would have had they not been asked to teach it to there friends. Not all my kids go to the same schools, some go to great schools, some not so great, but they all have one thing in common, homework. And we as a team make sure everyone's homework is done. I have also started my application into the Big brother program. I was awakened by my younger brother who runs youth programs to just how dire it is for some kids and I want to help.
AS far as teachers go, I just want the goods ones to be rewarded and the bad ones to not be. And I will not apologize for that.
To go to your sales reference...if you have ever worked a draw based commission sales job you would know that you only get paid when you get results. Sales aren't there, sorry you are outta luck, better go get them. I feel the same way about teachers...Students aren't learning for whatever reason, sorry better go get them. The ones that do should be handsomely rewarded with big time salaries. The ones who don't or refuse to go get the kids that need them the most shouldn't be rewarded with the exact same pay based on what the union negotiated. That is where all our money goes. Roughly half of MN's state budget goes to education, are you telling me that it isn't enough? could it possibly be that there are teachers and administrators who line their pockets while not producing?

I'm confused about your financial plan here. Where exactly will the money for all these performance-based raises and new school books & supplies come from? I don't know how it is in MN, but in every state I've lived in teachers couldn't possibly be paid any less. My mom has been teaching for about 30 years (in different school systems) and still lives basically paycheck to paycheck. All of her children make more money than she does. (I make just a little more, but my brother makes much more and my sister makes over twice as much as our mom - and we've been in the workforce MUCH less time.) I also really don't understand how you expect many teachers to possibly work any harder than they already do.

I agree with you that good teachers should be rewarded. I just still feel like I hear more of a condemnation of teachers than an appreciation. And I'm still not clear how exactly you propose to measure performance in a way that takes into consideration that not all students, classrooms, schools, or communities are alike. "Students aren't learning for whatever reason, sorry better go get them"?? Please explain to me exactly how you propose that my mom - who, whether the exception or the rule, would be subject to your policy - should "go get" her students. Where is the realism here?? People are always trying to say things should be this way or that way but don't stop to consider the harmful ways these ideas play out in the real world. And why should teachers be paid based on the performance of their students but doctors shouldn't be paid based on the health of their patients? (Or should they?)

Good job on helping other people's kids with their homework and being a Big Brother. Thank you.

[mikepegg44]

my point was more towards the idea that teachers salaries are not structured based on performance. That is a HUGE drain in the funds for a school that could otherwise be spent on books and other supplies and learning tools. That is one thing I would do. Give pay to people who earn it. People always work harder when they can get a raise based on their own work and not based on some silly step system. 3 years to tenure in MN. That is it. After tenure they can jsut about fart in students faces(not literally) for a fiar amount of money if they want. Do I think the majority are poor teachers, the answer is no.

As far as what I do. I offer during the long hockey season here in MN to run study groups with my kids throughout the season. I take practice time and move it off the ice and into a parent's basement and help the kids get their homework done. It serves two purposes for me. It builds team unity but it also helps the kids pick up on things they never would have had they not been asked to teach it to there friends. Not all my kids go to the same schools, some go to great schools, some not so great, but they all have one thing in common, homework. And we as a team make sure everyone's homework is done. I have also started my application into the Big brother program. I was awakened by my younger brother who runs youth programs to just how dire it is for some kids and I want to help.
AS far as teachers go, I just want the goods ones to be rewarded and the bad ones to not be. And I will not apologize for that.
To go to your sales reference...if you have ever worked a draw based commission sales job you would know that you only get paid when you get results. Sales aren't there, sorry you are outta luck, better go get them. I feel the same way about teachers...Students aren't learning for whatever reason, sorry better go get them. The ones that do should be handsomely rewarded with big time salaries. The ones who don't or refuse to go get the kids that need them the most shouldn't be rewarded with the exact same pay based on what the union negotiated. That is where all our money goes. Roughly half of MN's state budget goes to education, are you telling me that it isn't enough? could it possibly be that there are teachers and administrators who line their pockets while not producing?

I'm confused about your financial plan here. Where exactly will the money for all these performance-based raises and new school books & supplies come from? I don't know how it is in MN, but in every state I've lived in teachers couldn't possibly be paid any less. My mom has been teaching for about 30 years (in different school systems) and still lives basically paycheck to paycheck. All of her children make more money than she does. (I make just a little more, but my brother makes much more and my sister makes over twice as much as our mom - and we've been in the workforce MUCH less time.) I also really don't understand how you expect many teachers to possibly work any harder than they already do.

I agree with you that good teachers should be rewarded. I just still feel like I hear more of a condemnation of teachers than an appreciation. And I'm still not clear how exactly you propose to measure performance in a way that takes into consideration that not all students, classrooms, schools, or communities are alike. "Students aren't learning for whatever reason, sorry better go get them"?? Please explain to me exactly how you propose that my mom - who, whether the exception or the rule, would be subject to your policy - should "go get" her students. Where is the realism here?? People are always trying to say things should be this way or that way but don't stop to consider the harmful ways these ideas play out in the real world. And why should teachers be paid based on the performance of their students but doctors shouldn't be paid based on the health of their patients? (Or should they?)

Good job on helping other people's kids with their homework and being a Big Brother. Thank you.

I had a nice well thought out post I lost because of battery life so I will try to summarize it.

I don't get told I am doing a good job everyday. but I can tell you if TB were to have a huge swing and become a big issue again, people would wonder what it is that I was doing and tell us we were doing a shitty job. Teachers get appreciated by people everyday, don't kid yourself into thinking something different. But people also get sick and tired of teachers unions always complaining about compensation. Especially when people are out of work. It seems all I ever hear is more money for this, more money for that, but we don't want to be held accountable for the performance of our students. But all that ever seems to increase when they do get more money is tenured salaries and administrators' salaries. The system just sets itself up for criticism. Tenure is a huge problem and being completely top heavy in pay structure doesn't help at all. The fact that there is less money to pay new and inspired teachers because older teachers, who may simply have the job because they did the MINIMUM amount to continue their tenure are part of the problem. Being able to get rid of teachers OR pay them what their effort deserves is one way that would fund a raise for good teachers. On average a new teacher in minnesota makes roughly 35,000 a year. ~3 months off in the summer, good benefits, and a great retirement plan seem pretty fair to me for someone starting out. But if two teachers both make it to tenure, one being very good, engages students, challenges students...one doing just enough to avoid being fired, gets tenure and continues to make as much as the better teacher while simply doing the minimum amount... It doesn't make sense to me.
Hopefully that makes sense, don't have a lot of time to proof read

And as far as going to get them...Your mom already is doing that. But if you think your mom is the standard you are sadly mistaken. I have already said how I think teachers should be rewarded for being good at their job more than teachers who aren't. But shifting the blame onto other aspects of society is ridiculous. I cannot blame the homeless people I work with for living the way they do and spreading TB...it is up to me to find them, get them treated, and get all the people they have had contact with in to a clinic to get screened. Not an easy job, absolutely not an appreciated job, but one that is extremely important, and there aren't too many people in my line of work that expect to make a lot of money but work above and beyond anyway. If they were interested in money they would have gone into other industries or professions.

[_]

I had a nice well thought out post I lost because of battery life so I will try to summarize it.

I don't get told I am doing a good job everyday. but I can tell you if TB were to have a huge swing and become a big issue again, people would wonder what it is that I was doing and tell us we were doing a shitty job. Teachers get appreciated by people everyday, don't kid yourself into thinking something different. But people also get sick and tired of teachers unions always complaining about compensation. Especially when people are out of work. It seems all I ever hear is more money for this, more money for that, but we don't want to be held accountable for the performance of our students. But all that ever seems to increase when they do get more money is tenured salaries and administrators' salaries. The system just sets itself up for criticism. Tenure is a huge problem and being completely top heavy in pay structure doesn't help at all. The fact that there is less money to pay new and inspired teachers because older teachers, who may simply have the job because they did the MINIMUM amount to continue their tenure are part of the problem. Being able to get rid of teachers OR pay them what their effort deserves is one way that would fund a raise for good teachers. On average a new teacher in minnesota makes roughly 35,000 a year. ~3 months off in the summer, good benefits, and a great retirement plan seem pretty fair to me for someone starting out. But if two teachers both make it to tenure, one being very good, engages students, challenges students...one doing just enough to avoid being fired, gets tenure and continues to make as much as the better teacher while simply doing the minimum amount... It doesn't make sense to me.
Hopefully that makes sense, don't have a lot of time to proof read

And as far as going to get them...Your mom already is doing that. But if you think your mom is the standard you are sadly mistaken. I have already said how I think teachers should be rewarded for being good at their job more than teachers who aren't. But shifting the blame onto other aspects of society is ridiculous. I cannot blame the homeless people I work with for living the way they do and spreading TB...it is up to me to find them, get them treated, and get all the people they have had contact with in to a clinic to get screened. Not an easy job, absolutely not an appreciated job, but one that is extremely important, and there aren't too many people in my line of work that expect to make a lot of money but work above and beyond anyway. If they were interested in money they would have gone into other industries or professions.

I give up. I feel like this is just ANOTHER conversation where people want to sit around criticizing other people, whose shoes they have never walked in (which is not productive), instead of acknowleding the larger social structure that affects all aspects of our society and trying to be supportive (which is productive). It just makes me sad.

[mikepegg44]

I had a nice well thought out post I lost because of battery life so I will try to summarize it.

I don't get told I am doing a good job everyday. but I can tell you if TB were to have a huge swing and become a big issue again, people would wonder what it is that I was doing and tell us we were doing a shitty job. Teachers get appreciated by people everyday, don't kid yourself into thinking something different. But people also get sick and tired of teachers unions always complaining about compensation. Especially when people are out of work. It seems all I ever hear is more money for this, more money for that, but we don't want to be held accountable for the performance of our students. But all that ever seems to increase when they do get more money is tenured salaries and administrators' salaries. The system just sets itself up for criticism. Tenure is a huge problem and being completely top heavy in pay structure doesn't help at all. The fact that there is less money to pay new and inspired teachers because older teachers, who may simply have the job because they did the MINIMUM amount to continue their tenure are part of the problem. Being able to get rid of teachers OR pay them what their effort deserves is one way that would fund a raise for good teachers. On average a new teacher in minnesota makes roughly 35,000 a year. ~3 months off in the summer, good benefits, and a great retirement plan seem pretty fair to me for someone starting out. But if two teachers both make it to tenure, one being very good, engages students, challenges students...one doing just enough to avoid being fired, gets tenure and continues to make as much as the better teacher while simply doing the minimum amount... It doesn't make sense to me.
Hopefully that makes sense, don't have a lot of time to proof read

And as far as going to get them...Your mom already is doing that. But if you think your mom is the standard you are sadly mistaken. I have already said how I think teachers should be rewarded for being good at their job more than teachers who aren't. But shifting the blame onto other aspects of society is ridiculous. I cannot blame the homeless people I work with for living the way they do and spreading TB...it is up to me to find them, get them treated, and get all the people they have had contact with in to a clinic to get screened. Not an easy job, absolutely not an appreciated job, but one that is extremely important, and there aren't too many people in my line of work that expect to make a lot of money but work above and beyond anyway. If they were interested in money they would have gone into other industries or professions.

I give up. I feel like this is just ANOTHER conversation where people want to sit around criticizing other people, whose shoes they have never walked in (which is not productive), instead of acknowleding the larger social structure that affects all aspects of our society and trying to be supportive (which is productive). It just makes me sad.

what am I saying that is making you so sad? I am basically saying I want a system that rewards good teachers...why is that so terrible?

[Jason P]

I give up. I feel like this is just ANOTHER conversation where people want to sit around criticizing other people, whose shoes they have never walked in (which is not productive), instead of acknowleding the larger social structure that affects all aspects of our society and trying to be supportive (which is productive). It just makes me sad.

Don't give up. Just take the emotion of the work your Mother is doing and re-read (proper english? ) some of Mike's posts. I don't think he was attacking anybody. He was just presenting a plan that would hopefully improve the teaching pool and provide a better education system.

Your mother seems to have her hands full and is doing a special job . . . I sure as hell wouldn't last a day.

[_]

Teachers get appreciated by people everyday, don't kid yourself into thinking something different. But people also get sick and tired of teachers unions always complaining about compensation.... It seems all I ever hear is more money for this, more money for that, but we don't want to be held accountable for the performance of our students..... The fact that there is less money to pay new and inspired teachers because older teachers, who may simply have the job because they did the MINIMUM amount to continue their tenure are part of the problem....

And as far as going to get them...Your mom already is doing that. But if you think your mom is the standard you are sadly mistaken.... But shifting the blame onto other aspects of society is ridiculous.

I give up. I feel like this is just ANOTHER conversation where people want to sit around criticizing other people, whose shoes they have never walked in (which is not productive), instead of acknowleding the larger social structure that affects all aspects of our society and trying to be supportive (which is productive). It just makes me sad.

what am I saying that is making you so sad? I am basically saying I want a system that rewards good teachers...why is that so terrible?

I left in the part of your quote above that makes me sad. What I read is:

Teachers are appreciated enough already so they should quit their bitching. They just want more money for themselves but don't want to work for it. New teachers are better than old teachers, who are don't work hard and are the problem. Most teachers don't work as hard as my mom (who would probably be out on her ass in your system). People don't care to put themselves in the teachers' shoes and actually try to understand the reality of the challenges they face. Education exists in a complete vacuum from the rest of society and anyone who has a more holistic view of life is just trying to blame others. The failure of any child to learn is completely the fault of the teachers and no other part of society is - or should be - willing to step up and do their part.

I know you also said some other stuff about "good" teachers (which is still undefined) getting paid more, but it's hard to get past all the negativity about teachers, which I think it much more prevalent than any positivity about, appreciation for, or understanding of them.

[mikepegg44]

I left in the part of your quote above that makes me sad. What I read is:

Teachers are appreciated enough already so they should quit their bitching. They just want more money for themselves but don't want to work for it. New teachers are better than old teachers, who are don't work hard and are the problem. Most teachers don't work as hard as my mom (who would probably be out on her ass in your system). People don't care to put themselves in the teachers' shoes and actually try to understand the reality of the challenges they face. Education exists in a complete vacuum from the rest of society and anyone who has a more holistic view of life is just trying to blame others. The failure of any child to learn is completely the fault of the teachers and no other part of society is - or should be - willing to step up and do their part.

I know you also said some other stuff about "good" teachers (which is still undefined) getting paid more, but it's hard to get past all the negativity about teachers, which I think it much more prevalent than any positivity about, appreciation for, or understanding of them.

If that is what you took out of what I wrote you absolutely missed my point. I did not say all teachers who have been teaching a while are poor. Nor did I say all new teachers are better. Nor did I say that appreciation means that it is impossible to try and better your situation. I also never said teachers get appreciated so they have to shut up. And specifically NO YOUR MOM WOULDN'T...It is like you are purposely misinterpreting what I am saying to make it fit into some idea that I hate teachers.

Are there bad teachers? In your mind, are their teachers who aren't able to reach their students?
In my experience there are. I have had them. I have two friends that ARE them. They are terrible teachers, they admit it all the time, but guess what...they will not get fired anymore because they now have tenure at their respective schools and couldn't care less. They do the very minimum not to get fired. It isn't just about pay either, teachers unions have secured some of the best benefit packages, giant tuition reimbursement programs, and pension plans in the nation. Are there many teachers who deserve it...yep...are there many who don't...yep.

[Blockhead]

I agree SCB. My wife is a teacher in Northern Kentucky at a rough "inner city" school and you just can't teach kids that don't want to learn or care. Its not easy to say that it is their jobs to do that when the 5th graders are 15 years old and have already mapped out their life. Things are as cut and dry to blame the whole system on Teachers. The problem i belive lies with the kids and their parents.

[_]

If that is what you took out of what I wrote you absolutely missed my point. I did not say all teachers who have been teaching a while are poor. Nor did I say all new teachers are better. Nor did I say that appreciation means that it is impossible to try and better your situation. I also never said teachers get appreciated so they have to shut up. And specifically NO YOUR MOM WOULDN'T...It is like you are purposely misinterpreting what I am saying to make it fit into some idea that I hate teachers.

Are there bad teachers? In your mind, are their teachers who aren't able to reach their students?
In my experience there are. I have had them. I have two friends that ARE them. They are terrible teachers, they admit it all the time, but guess what...they will not get fired anymore because they now have tenure at their respective schools and couldn't care less. They do the very minimum not to get fired. It isn't just about pay either, teachers unions have secured some of the best benefit packages, giant tuition reimbursement programs, and pension plans in the nation. Are there many teachers who deserve it...yep...are there many who don't...yep.

I'm not going to argue point by point about what you said & how I interpreted it (though it's tempting). I know you don't hate teachers. I just think there are more negative comments about teachers than positive ones. (Go back and read the comments and see.) Yes, there are bad teachers - just like there are people who aren't good in any profession. But for every bad teacher I've ever had, I had 10 amazing ones. I just think the commentary should be proportionate. But the stuff I hear/read seems to suggest that the bad teachers are the rule, not the exception. I also think that not every teacher can or should be expected to reach every student, and this doesn't reflect a fault of the teacher's.

As for my mom, I believe she would be fired under your system. Although you haven't specifically outlined the criteria we should use to measure teachers' performance, you have said that it needs to be standardized and based on the performance of the students. My mom's students don't perform as well as the general population of students. I say this is in large part due to social factors. You say social factors are not relevant and when students don't perform well, it's the teacher's fault. I take offense to that attitude.

Also, standardized ideas of how classrooms should run don't fit my mom's classrooms, and yet they are applied during evaluations and you seem to be saying that they should be applied even more rigorously and teachers who don't meet them should be fired. My mom has already scored badly on evaluations for this reason. Her students can't sit still at their desks and listen to lectures like other kids. Many of them need to wander around the room, hang out on the couch, listen to headphones, tap their pencils, etc. They actually learn better that way. But evaluators (who I have no reason to believe are any different than yourself) saw this as a chaotic classroom and gave her a bad score in discipline. Also, when your class is full of people (not ALL, but enough) who are already at risk for dropping out of school and becoming violent criminals, you have to let some transgressions go. If she wrote up every kid who cursed or refused to give up his cell phone or whatever, they would all be kicked out of school. But she knows that when a kid slams his fist into a locker the alternative was for him to slam it into someone's face - and she should be proud of him for exhibiting a greater level of control, not necessarily report him for displaying violence. (Not that she doesn't report kids. She does, and she has no control over the consequences, which oftentimes include expulsion from school and criminal charges - which makes me fear for her safety.)

Anyway, my point is that your method of evaluation seems to suggest that teachers and their students should fit a certain mold in order for the teachers to be considered good teachers. Maybe your intention is to be fair to good teachers (and I agree), but I don't think the judgements or suggestions I hear are fair at all.

Let me add: I think one of the major problems of the education system these days is that teachers get no respect. Do you think, overall, the things you have said about teachers fully display and/or encourage respect for them and their profession?

[_]

I agree SCB. My wife is a teacher in Northern Kentucky at a rough "inner city" school and you just can't teach kids that don't want to learn or care. Its not easy to say that it is their jobs to do that when the 5th graders are 15 years old and have already mapped out their life. Things are as cut and dry to blame the whole system on Teachers. The problem i belive lies with the kids and their parents.

Hey! Is this the first thing we agree about? Maybe this calls for celebration!

I think our opinions tend to diverge when it comes to identifying the problem though. (Haven't we had this conversation before?)

[cincybearcat]

I know you also said some other stuff about "good" teachers (which is still undefined) getting paid more, but it's hard to get past all the negativity about teachers, which I think it much more prevalent than any positivity about, appreciation for, or understanding of them.

I understand and actually agree with a lot of what you say. It disturbs me though that you don't seem to think there is a way to measure a good teacher vs a poor teacher. It's certainly not as easy as measuring the performance of a salesman as there are far more variables and no 1 measure that can quantify the totality of a teacher's ability/job performance. But I certainly think it can and should be done. It is better to reward those teachers that perform at a high level (#1 It keeps them teaching #2 It incentives others to become teachers #3 It's a wake up call to anyone currently riding the gravy train) rather than reward someone just for showing up for so long.