Learning Guitar

[DriftingByTheStorm]

So, I am roughly 3 months in to learning the guitar. While I admit, I don't have as much time to practice like I would hope I feel as if I may be a little behind. I am taking lessons and I am not sure if I am receiving the best instruction. What exactly should I be taught this far in my lessons? I know my basic chords well but, thats as far as I go. Any thoughts?

I'm surprised that 3 months in you've learned nothing but chords -- ie. not learned "scales".

I don't want to second guess your instructor, but you may at least want to look up "E Major Pentatonic Scale Guitar" and give it a go by yourself.

Scale With ROOT Tone In Red
List of Pentatonic Scales With Fret Number Indicated -- Scroll Down For E Major Pent

This is what you're scrolling down to see:
E Major Pentatonic
e-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
B-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
G-|1-|--|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9-|--|11|--|13|--|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
D-|--|2-|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
A-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|23|--|
E-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|

Like I said,
wouldn't wanna second guess your teacher,
but if you haven't even GIVEN A CURSORY LOOK to the scale, you NEED TO, by yourself, with another teacher, or however.

You WILL NOT UNDERSTAND GUITAR UNTIL YOU UNDERSTAND HOW THE SCALE IS COMPOSED.

It is NOT a mystery.
You DO NOT need "theory". Don't even get scared or anxious.
Just sit down, and PATIENTLY and SLOWLY put your fingers on the frets as indicated in as intelligent a fashion as possible ...
Go Back To This Scale Page and look at the top section. Those are your scale "positions" pick any one of them, play it ANYWHERE on the fretboard. GENERALLY (rule), the X's farthest to the left of the screen, you play with your POINTER finger. The next farthest out, with your middle finger. So for that first position on the page, the X on the low E string you are going to play it with your MIDDLE finger, because it is ONE IN from the Xs on both the D and G string (which you will play with your POINTER) ... sounds confusing, but try it.

THIS IS YOUR SCALE.
LEARN IT.

Don't worry about where each position is or how they relate.
JUST START PLAYING THOSE PATTERNS.
If you want to try learning the entire scale in sections. That's great too.
JUST START PLAYING IT.
THIS IS IT.
That is how you will "LEARN" guitar.
I promise. It will take a while. But you will get it.
Once you start learning those patterns, your brain will UNLOCK songs.
You will see tab, and you will instantly (ok, almost instantly) be able to realize, HEY that is such-and-such pattern ... i KNOW where i am on the fretboard. I know what i'm doing. Hell you may not even know the key you are in, or WHAT scale you are playing. Here is the secret - they are ALL the same. Just in different places. The ones in the link (those pattterns) that is IT. Really.
Well, i mean, there ARE ***SOME*** other scales (and modes, eww gross, modes) but who needs em.
GO LEARN THE PENTATONIC SCALE.

Then hit your teacher in the head for not showing you them.


I bet when you start studying the scale,
you will start to see and "unlock" the chords you have used.
You can see how they "fit" "into" the scale.

[DriftingByTheStorm]

and GO HERE:
Given To Wail: Pearl Jam For Beginners
that page has some GOOD shit on it.

[FrankieG]

E Major Pentatonic
e-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
B-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
G-|1-|--|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9-|--|11|--|13|--|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
D-|--|2-|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
A-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|23|--|
E-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|

I get this. I have almost memorized these patterns. My problem comes when transitioning from one pattern to the other. How do you know which note to go to from which one.

For example: Yellow ledbetter plays on the 9-11-12 pattern. If I play on G9, then I can go to G11 or D11. But which 6-7 fret would i go to?

Is there an easy way to know/remember?

e-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
B-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
G-|1-|--|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9 -|--|11|--|13|--|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
D-|--|2-|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
A-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|23|--|
E-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|

[BinFrog]

E Major Pentatonic
e-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
B-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
G-|1-|--|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9-|--|11|--|13|--|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
D-|--|2-|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
A-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|23|--|
E-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|

I get this. I have almost memorized these patterns. My problem comes when transitioning from one pattern to the other. How do you know which note to go to from which one.

For example: Yellow ledbetter plays on the 9-11-12 pattern. If I play on G9, then I can go to G11 or D11. But which 6-7 fret would i go to?

Is there an easy way to know/remember?

e-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
B-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
G-|1-|--|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9 -|--|11|--|13|--|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
D-|--|2-|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
A-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|23|--|
E-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|

Transform the fret #'s to E-major modes/degrees.

Pentatonic = 5 notes. So when you go from E to the next octave of E, you'll have hit 5 notes, but more importantly 5 modal tones (or degrees): 1, 2, 3, 5, 6 or:

E (ionian)
F# (Dorian)
G# (Phrygian)
B (Mixolydian)
C# (Aeolian)

You are skipping Lydian and Locrian.

So instead of the fret #s, translate them to their respective tonal #s and then you can more easily see how to connect the dots between the various fingering positions.

So the low E string would look like:

E-|--|2-|--|3-|--|--|5-|--|6-|--|--|1|--|2|--|3|--|--|5|--|6|--|--|1|

try using this page and check off "Degree" as the "show as" option.

[DriftingByTheStorm]

E Major Pentatonic
e-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
B-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
G-|1-|--|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9-|--|11|--|13|--|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
D-|--|2-|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
A-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|23|--|
E-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|

I get this. I have almost memorized these patterns. My problem comes when transitioning from one pattern to the other. How do you know which note to go to from which one.

For example: Yellow ledbetter plays on the 9-11-12 pattern. If I play on G9, then I can go to G11 or D11. But which 6-7 fret would i go to?

Is there an easy way to know/remember?

e-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
B-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
G-|1-|--|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9 -|--|11|--|13|--|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
D-|--|2-|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
A-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|23|--|
E-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|

Well.
1. If you have almost memorized the major pentatonic patterns, you are DOING REALLY WELL.

2. To answer your question, i'm not really sure there IS a good answer.
Personally, i find that moving UP a pattern on the fretboard is almost always easier than moving down it... but as to your specific example, it's going to depend on what sound\tone you are looking for.

As you play these patterns more and more, your brain should start to innately grasp which interval to travel to get specific comparative tones. Your brain will understand, from playing these patterns, both how those interval (number of semitone or frets traveled) relationships function both forward and back on the same string AS WELL AS between strings themselves.

A simple exercise to perform to comprehend the nature of these semitone relationships both ON a string and BETWEEN strings might be something like as follows:

Pick an interval to travel ON a string:
Played in the 9th position you spoke of
e-----------------------
B-----------------------
G-----------------------
D-----------9B---11C#
A-----------------------
E-----------------------

Then find the comparative interval BETWEEN strings:
This would be one position back.
e----------------------------
B----------------------------
G-----------------------6C#
D-----------9B--------------
A----------------------------
E----------------------------

Lets add one more interval, to get a 3 tone relationship, so we can truly travel, and perhaps you will understand how you can apply this to help you learn to travel between positions.

Using Ledbetter as a tonal comparison:

Say we have started a "run" like this, LINKING between D9 and G9 using D11:
B-to-C#-to-E (or per BinFrog in degrees -- 5--to--6--to--1[or8])
e-----------------------------
B-----------------------------
G----------------------9-----
D-----------9----11---------
A----------------------------
E----------------------------

Staying IN position, we COULD turn tonally back down the scale very simply, by adding to the phrase:

previous portion here ----now we add ---
e-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
B-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
G----------------------9--------------------------------9---------------------
D-----------9----11------------------------------------------11----9---------
A----------------------------------------------------------------------------11
E-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
that should be LedBetterly familiar ...

Now. TO THE POINT.
we just established the interval relation ship between
D-----------9B---11C#
is the same as that between:
G-----------------------6C#
D-----------9B--------------

and knowing this in real time would allow you to do the following as a way of turning tonally back down the scale AND CHANGE POSITIONS.... you just need to know this ONE interval equivalency (above) and the next lower scale position and you can get this instead:

previous portion here ---- EQUIVALENT INTERVAL BELOW ----- and next scale pattern down:
e---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
B---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
G----------------------9-----------------------------------------9\slide\6----------------------
D-----------9----11--------------------------------------------------------------9-----6---------
A-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------9
E---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Beginning to understand these "equivalent intervals" is probably the only real way start to "understand" how to travel up and down.

The only other way would be route memorization of tonal names.
In otherwords if, by route memory you knew that D11 was C# and so was G6, then you would be able to do it that way, but since i don't EVER play guitar by knowing a note name (maybe i may initially FIGURE OUT a lick by using music theory) ... i just pray my hand "knows" the interval relationship i am seeking ... i don't find that using note names to guide me on a scale to be of much practical value IN THE MOMENT.

???

[FrankieG]

E Major Pentatonic
e-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
B-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
G-|1-|--|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9-|--|11|--|13|--|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
D-|--|2-|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
A-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|23|--|
E-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|

I get this. I have almost memorized these patterns. My problem comes when transitioning from one pattern to the other. How do you know which note to go to from which one.

For example: Yellow ledbetter plays on the 9-11-12 pattern. If I play on G9, then I can go to G11 or D11. But which 6-7 fret would i go to?

Is there an easy way to know/remember?

e-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
B-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
G-|1-|--|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9 -|--|11|--|13|--|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
D-|--|2-|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
A-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|23|--|
E-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|

Well.
1. If you have almost memorized the major pentatonic patterns, you are DOING REALLY WELL.

2. To answer your question, i'm not really sure there IS a good answer.
Personally, i find that moving UP a pattern on the fretboard is almost always easier than moving down it... but as to your specific example, it's going to depend on what sound\tone you are looking for.

As you play these patterns more and more, your brain should start to innately grasp which interval to travel to get specific comparative tones. Your brain will understand, from playing these patterns, both how those interval (number of semitone or frets traveled) relationships function both forward and back on the same string AS WELL AS between strings themselves.

A simple exercise to perform to comprehend the nature of these semitone relationships both ON a string and BETWEEN strings might be something like as follows:

Pick an interval to travel ON a string:
Played in the 9th position you spoke of
e-----------------------
B-----------------------
G-----------------------
D-----------9B---11C#
A-----------------------
E-----------------------

Then find the comparative interval BETWEEN strings:
This would be one position back.
e----------------------------
B----------------------------
G-----------------------6C#
D-----------9B--------------
A----------------------------
E----------------------------

Lets add one more interval, to get a 3 tone relationship, so we can truly travel, and perhaps you will understand how you can apply this to help you learn to travel between positions.

Using Ledbetter as a tonal comparison:

Say we have started a "run" like this, LINKING between D9 and G9 using D11:
B-to-C#-to-E (or per BinFrog in degrees -- 5--to--6--to--1[or8])
e-----------------------------
B-----------------------------
G----------------------9-----
D-----------9----11---------
A----------------------------
E----------------------------

Staying IN position, we COULD turn tonally back down the scale very simply, by adding to the phrase:

previous portion here ----now we add ---
e-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
B-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
G----------------------9--------------------------------9---------------------
D-----------9----11------------------------------------------11----9---------
A----------------------------------------------------------------------------11
E-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
that should be LedBetterly familiar ...

Now. TO THE POINT.
we just established the interval relation ship between
D-----------9B---11C#
is the same as that between:
G-----------------------6C#
D-----------9B--------------

and knowing this in real time would allow you to do the following as a way of turning tonally back down the scale AND CHANGE POSITIONS.... you just need to know this ONE interval equivalency (above) and the next lower scale position and you can get this instead:

previous portion here ---- EQUIVALENT INTERVAL BELOW ----- and next scale pattern down:
e---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
B---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
G----------------------9-----------------------------------------9\slide\6----------------------
D-----------9----11--------------------------------------------------------------9-----6---------
A-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------9
E---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Beginning to understand these "equivalent intervals" is probably the only real way start to "understand" how to travel up and down.

The only other way would be route memorization of tonal names.
In otherwords if, by route memory you knew that D11 was C# and so was G6, then you would be able to do it that way, but since i don't EVER play guitar by knowing a note name (maybe i may initially FIGURE OUT a lick by using music theory) ... i just pray my hand "knows" the interval relationship i am seeking ... i don't find that using note names to guide me on a scale to be of much practical value IN THE MOMENT.

???

That totally makes sense! Thank you sooo much Drifting!

I don't think I would be able to memorize the tonal names and be able to play at any real tempo..

I have a chart of the not names so I will definitely need to practice transfering between patterns. (I also want to mention that I think I'm not as good with scales as you think I am )

The only thing that I didn't understand was what the degrees think you were referring to for BinFrog... but that's not that important because Im assuming it's the same thing as knowing the note names?

Thank you so much for helping me with all this. Your tips/teaching/help has been a big part about me understanding and coming back to keep playing.

[DriftingByTheStorm]

The only thing that I didn't understand was what the degrees think you were referring to for BinFrog... but that's not that important because Im assuming it's the same thing as knowing the note names?

Thank you so much for helping me with all this. Your tips/teaching/help has been a big part about me understanding and coming back to keep playing.

No problem, man.
Like i said, going over this shit again helps ME too.
I'm pretty piss poor with theory, in reality.
I'm just now starting to work out the mental knots in my brain regarding this stuff. I have half of a lot of things, and i'm trying to connect the other half, so trying to explain it to others on here forces me to reconcile it myself.

Regarding the degrees, yeah, i was referring to BinFrogs post, just trying to make a connection to what he said, in case you were trying to catch his jist as well.
"degrees" is just note numbers in the scale. Remember there are only 7 tones in a scale in western music. Like in the key of C it is
1-2-3--4-5-6-7-and sometimes the "octave is referred to as 8
C-D-E-F-G-A-B--------------------------------------------------------------C-the next higher c, of course
i've never tried to apply this, so i can't give you a whole lot of guidance (hell maybe i'll start trying) but I guess what binfrog is saying is that if you translate your finger\fret positions (or the note names) in to their corresponding degrees you would be able to more intuitively mental map which way is UP and which way is DOWN or, also possibly how FAR up or down you want to go.

I have a LOT of trouble thinking of music in concrete terms like that (gee, i'm at scale note 4, and i want to go back to the tonic??? i dunno), and i'm not sure HOW you would apply it to any great affect (maybe binfrog could share some ideas?) ... i actually sat here for a while trying to figure out a way to explain how you could use that for something that wasn't just nonsensical, and i couldn't ... I just use my intuitive (understood through experience and then applied subconsciously) understanding of what INTERVALS (number of frets up or down, or between strings) make what RELATIVE sounds (relative to whatever fret i'm currently at) and use that understanding to find the next note. Combining this notion with an even spotty memorization of the scale positions yields pretty damn good results.

Remember that any specific fret-interval between ANY note (ie picking a fret, and then going up two frets) will ALWAYS make the same RELATIVE tonal change. So if i start on one note and go up 4 frets, that tonal change will be the same no matter if i start on E and go up 4 frets, or if i start on C and go up 4 frets. The QUALITY of the tones will be different (e and c just sound inherently different) but the RELATIONSHIP between the first note you sound and the next is always the same, as long as you use the same interval (ie. going up 4 frets) It's a simple concept but worth getting through your noggin. Once your brain starts to remember what each different interval sounds like, you can use that to get your next note. "Oh gee, i want a 4 fret interval" ... and the best part is, as i have said, once you can do that 2 or 3 times in a row, you have essentially just FOUND your scale position. This is great because even if you can't remember which position goes in front or behind of the one you are in, you can re-map it yourself by simply using the intervals to get there.

To make a quick example using ledbetter,
maybe you are doing this, and you happen to wander up to a new position.
(i'm going to try show you something in a position that isn't really used by mike - to my knowledge - to make a point here, that it doesn't matter if you "know" where you are):

uhhh .... ok here:
e---2h4p2----2b3
b-----------------------5(maybe some vibrato here?)
g---
d---
a---
e---

OK. so you did that.
Maybe you figured it out by ear.
Hell, i just did. I had no idea what position i was in.
But then you do this. You try again to use your understanding of the intervals to find another note that works... so maybe you continue the pattern like this:

use your pointer on all the 2s (both strings) and your pinky (or ring) on that 5
e---2h4p2----2b3
b-----------------------5p2h5
g---
d---
a---
e---

Ok. STOP.
In your brain you should start to see wheels turning.
If not. Look at your scale position chart.

e--2-----4
b--2--------5
g---
d---
a---
e---

FAMILIAR?
Now. SOMETIMES you will do something LIKE this ... figure out a few notes by ear (and using intervals) ... and there will be SEVERAL scale positions that it could be ...

For instance, look at your E Maj Pent (and i don't want to blow this, but this IS the scale you are using. lol) ...
E Major Pentatonic
e-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
B-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
G-|1-|--|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9-|--|11|--|13|--|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
D-|--|2-|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
A-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|23|--|
E-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
So, in SOME cases, you will have MORE work to do. As, looking above, even if you had figured out EITHER of those FOUR NOTES (either the red 4, or the blue 4) you could have been in EITHER position ... so you would have to find another interval or two, before you would be absolutely sure what position you were in ...

but in OUR case ...
e-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
B-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
G-|1-|--|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9-|--|11|--|13|--|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
D-|--|2-|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
A-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|23|--|
E-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|

Assuming you have a grasp on your scale positions, you would probably recognize by the time you went from these two notes (knowing you had already been on that 4)
e--2-----4
b--2--------5
g---
d---
a---
e---

that there is really only one stupid position that makes you do that on the high strings.
SO NOW YOU'VE FOUND YOUR POSITION, and you had NO idea where you were to start, right?

You can keep doing that up and down the fret board...

So now you know THAT positions ... ok ...
so USE it ... AND your growing intuitive grasp of "intervals":
e---2h4p2----2b3------------------------------------------------------------
b-----------------------5p2h5--------2---5p2--------------------------------
g----------------------------------------------------4p1------------------------
d-----------------------------------------------------------4b5r4--2-----2----
a------------------------------------------------------------------------4-------
e--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ok... NOW ...
ready?
Time to "FIND" a new position ... only one way to go in this case, so lets go find the next one UP...
play the last one again, and then do this after wards:
e--------------------
b--------------------
g--------------------
d-------2----4///6
a---4----------------
e--------------------

UH OH ... we just slid up to a NEW position.
But i don't KNOW that position ... HELP HELP ... brain freak out OH NO OH NO!
HOLD ON NOW! USE YOUR EAR and ***INTERVALS***
what sound do you "need" ???
Ok ... how bout this????
e--------------------
b--------------------
g------------------------4
d-------2----4///6
a---4----------------
e--------------------
That works.
Find ANOTHER by INTERVAL:
e--------------------
b--------------------
g------------------------4----6
d-------2----4///6
a---4----------------
e--------------------

Ok.
ONE more by ear\INTERVAL:
e--------------------
b---------------------------------5
g------------------------4----6
d-------2----4///6
a---4----------------
e--------------------

now use THISchart.
I think it illustrates the pent scale more clearly. Not by any specific scale (ie. E or C) but just by what ever note (N) and then +3 +5 +7 +10 ... as in next position is 3 frets up. 5 frets up. 7 frets up. 10up.
only ONE of those 5 can be your scale position now. Look.
Look at "N" and look at "N+7". Look at the D and G string in both patterns. See how you could have been in either position UNTIL you got to that 5 on the b string that we hit last? THAT was your give away. If you know the scale positions. Even if you don't know their order, you would know the SECOND you hit that 5 that there was only ONE position you could be in. You would just KNOW.

SO START FUCKIN IT UP. Now you got TWO positions next to each other to tear through:
ok to help: i=index m=middle r=ring p=pinky ... to keep you in "scale" positions here:

[ok where the 5h7 and the 4h7 are you are "cheating" by using your ring and not pinky for the hammer on, cuz your ring is stronger and you don't need the pinky here, and well, go ahead and try to bend that 7b9 with your pinky it sucks. the trick is, unless you like pointless finger stretching, when you hit that 5 on the b string with your middle finger, AS you are going to hammer on the 7 with your ring finger, you are going to SLIDE your middle finger up off the five and just let it rest on the 6 behind the 7 that your ring is fretting ... its just a trick of this position really ... you'll start intuitively picking up on these]

++++r+i++++r+++r+++i++r++m+r+m+r++i++r++r+++r+i++r+++r+m+r+m
e------------------------------------------------4h7--7b9r7--4-------------------
b---------------------------------5------5h7----------------------7b8r7p5------5
g------------------------4----6------6------------------------------------------6---
d-------2----4///6-----------------------------------------------------------------
a---4---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
e-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now maybe it's time to come back DOWN (no right or wrong here, just feel it)
remember you already just figured out BOTH of these positions, so use that to your advantage:

+++r++m+r+i+++++i++r+++r+i++r+i+++++
e-------------------------------------------------
b-------5-----------------------------------------
g---6------6p4\\\\\\1---------------------------
d-------------------------4b5r4p2-----2-------
a--------------------------------------4----------
e-------------------------------------------------

SHEWWW.

All of them together:
e---2h4p2----2b3------------------------------------------------------------
b-----------------------5p2h5--------2---5p2--------------------------------
g----------------------------------------------------4p1------------------------
d-----------------------------------------------------------4b5r4--2-----2----
a------------------------------------------------------------------------4-------
e--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

++++r+i++++r+++r+++i++r++m+r+m+r++i++r++r+++r+i++r+++r+m+r+m
e------------------------------------------------4h7--7b9r7--4-------------------
b---------------------------------5------5h7----------------------7b8r7p5------5
g------------------------4----6------6------------------------------------------6---
d-------2----4///6-----------------------------------------------------------------
a---4---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
e-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

+++r++m+r+i+++++i++r+++r+i++r+i+++++
e-------------------------------------------------
b-------5-----------------------------------------
g---6------6p4\\\\\\1---------------------------
d-------------------------4b5r4p2-----2-------
a--------------------------------------4----------
e-------------------------------------------------

Ok. so don't FRET (har har) if you GET it, but you're still shakey...
hell, i'm still shakey ... but this is the concept ...
use intervals to intuit your way through the parts you don't know ...
then build a frame around which to work ... recognize the frame for the position it is,
and then use that to accelerate your playing further.

fun fun?

[BinFrog]

You know, my post would have made a lot more sense (well, my final sentence), had the URL I tried to paste actually....pasted. Hah.

[BinFrog]

this is what I meant to link to:

http://12bar.de/scale_generator.php

[BinFrog]

Regarding the degrees, yeah, i was referring to BinFrogs post, just trying to make a connection to what he said, in case you were trying to catch his jist as well.
"degrees" is just note numbers in the scale. Remember there are only 7 tones in a scale in western music. Like in the key of C it is
1-2-3--4-5-6-7-and sometimes the "octave is referred to as 8
C-D-E-F-G-A-B--------------------------------------------------------------C-the next higher c, of course
i've never tried to apply this, so i can't give you a whole lot of guidance (hell maybe i'll start trying) but I guess what binfrog is saying is that if you translate your finger\fret positions (or the note names) in to their corresponding degrees you would be able to more intuitively mental map which way is UP and which way is DOWN or, also possibly how FAR up or down you want to go.

I have a LOT of trouble thinking of music in concrete terms like that (gee, i'm at scale note 4, and i want to go back to the tonic??? i dunno), and i'm not sure HOW you would apply it to any great affect (maybe binfrog could share some ideas?) ... i actually sat here for a while trying to figure out a way to explain how you could use that for something that wasn't just nonsensical, and i couldn't ... I just use my intuitive (understood through experience and then applied subconsciously) understanding of what INTERVALS (number of frets up or down, or between strings) make what RELATIVE sounds (relative to whatever fret i'm currently at) and use that understanding to find the next note. Combining this notion with an even spotty memorization of the scale positions yields pretty damn good results.

So what I was trying to get at in my failed-to-link-to-the-page-I-references fail post was that it helps to think of scales, and where you are on the fretboard, in terms of degrees vs notes. You'll get the notes down eventually if you want to. Anyone, with enough patience, can memorize all of the frets. But when you are learning scales you are going to figure them out in stages:

First you will just learn how to play them in a few key positions all around the fretboard. For example your normal minor pentatonic fingering is something like (these are finger numbers where 1 = pointer finger):

e 1-4
b 1-4
g 1-3
d 1-3
a 1-3
E 1-4

Anyone can learn than. It's just dexterity and muscle memory.

From there you start learning how to move around a bit. For example I know that in any major/ionian key I can play that formation in 3 different spots up to the 12th fret. Let's take the key of C for example, because it's easy (no sharps or flats).

C major is C D E F G A B C, as far as notes go.

When you apply those to modes and chords, C then looks like:

1: C-maj (Ionian)
2: D-min (Dorian)
3: E-min (Phrygian)
4: F-maj (Lydian)
5: G-maj (Mixolydian)
6: A-min (Aeolian)
7: B-dim (Locrian)
8: C-maj (Ionion)

You can see that in the key of C, the 3 minor modes are D, E and A. Which means that the pattern I laid out above will work if you start at the 0 (E), 5th (A) or 10th (D) frets. The 2, 3 and 6 degrees of any major scale are based on minor chords. However you will noticed that each one has a different tonality to it. Dorian sounds different than Phrygian which sounds different than Aeolian.

Where, in my mind, it gets interesting, is when the passing notes come into play, because that is how I tie this all together. When I solo, I almost always head for one of these 3 modes and then work on the passing notes (the notes not in the pentatonic scale, but in the major scale I am based in).

All 3 pentatonic fingerings have different passing notes from the C-maj scale.

For example if I were to play A (the relative minor) of C as a pentatonic scale, it would look like this on the fret board:

5-8
5-8
5-7
5-7
5-7
5-8

This would get old rather quick if all you did was stay on these notes. So then you start looking for accent notes, or what is left in the C-maj scale. In parentheses are the "missing" notes:

5-(7)-8
5-(6)-8
(4)-5-7
5-7-(9) - This 9th "B" is also the 4th "B" on the G string above.
5-7-(8)
5-(7)-8

There is no right answer here. You need to play around with the notes to figure out what sound you are going for.

Now to me, I key in on that B note on the 9th fret of the D string. Why? Because it's going to give so much tension (Locrian oozes tension that needs to be resolved...so does Lydian). So if I noodle around and keep teasing that B note, I know I am a half step away from glory. And what happens when I finally decide to get to that C note on the D string, 10th fret? If I get there with my pointer finger (or index finger that slides up to the 12th fret) and do it just right, VOILA: I am now in another minor pentatonic fingering: D-min, or the Dorian mode. The passing notes here, while based on the same notes (C major), will have slightly different fingerings and thus depending on how you play will have different effects on your solo. A simple slide up brought me to a new territory with very little work. This is when a degree-based chart can be useful. Thinking in terms of degree numbers is really helpful.

And the best part of this Dorian fingering: Phrygian is just a step (2 frets) away...with new passing notes!

[DriftingByTheStorm]

Wow.
THANKS bin!
you just taught me something new.

I think we are ALL (all we, who are reading this thread, lol) going to have to play around with what you just said to really get it ... but play around i will.

ONE QUESTION ...
and that is on the very same point i said you just taught me ...
well ... okay TWO Questions or two parts>>>

Which means that the pattern I laid out above will work if you start at the 0 (E), 5th (A) or 10th (D) frets.

okay. this is new\news to me ... i think because it relates to "modes" which i will admit ignorance to. I just stick to boring straight pentatonics in whatever scale i'm in (ie. e-maj, e-min, etc) ...

1. when you say "your normal minor pentatonic fingering is something like" and then give the pattern
WHY is that the "normal minor" pattern, as opposed to ONE of SEVERAL patterns in any given minor pentatonic key?

2. HOW is this SAME pattern applicable in 3 different positions ... understanding yourself that i don't understand modes very well\at all ... but i do understand your point on the 3 minor "chord" positions within the minor scale (the 2nd, 3rd, and 6th) ... playing this EXACT SAME pattern would be playing passing notes, yes? or notes out of key but in mode? or what? i'm confused? Only knowing pentatonics and their positions, i'm familiar with moving to a different position and playin a DIFFERENT pattern ... but here you suggest 3 possible places (below the 12th fret, so there are SIX?) i could play the SAME pattern.
GUH?

Maybe now would be a good time for us to open up a NEW thread on "MODES" ?
I dunno.
fuck.
Hey at least we're LEARNING.
YAY!

[BinFrog]

I'll give it my best tomorrow when I am not using my iPad.

[BinFrog]

(by the way...I mean the 3 positions can be played the same as straight pentatonics...NOT with the passing notes...passing notes are different in all 3 positions)

[BinFrog]

1. when you say "your normal minor pentatonic fingering is something like" and then give the pattern
WHY is that the "normal minor" pattern, as opposed to ONE of SEVERAL patterns in any given minor pentatonic key?

When most people learn how to solo, they learn a minor pentatonic scale (and odds are they are usually using it incorrectly, but that's a different story). Most guitarists I know of think of the box pattern when they think of the minor pentatonic scale, which is as I posted above:

1-4
1-4
1-3
1-3
1-3
1-4

If you start on the low E string with your index finger, that's your minor root (or degree if you will). If someone tells you to play a minor pentatonic scale, this fingering will always work as long as you start it on the right note. That's why it's such a highly used fingering. It's portable and very easy to apply. That's why it's, not surprisingly, so overused.

2. HOW is this SAME pattern applicable in 3 different positions ... understanding yourself that i don't understand modes very well\at all ... but i do understand your point on the 3 minor "chord" positions within the minor scale (the 2nd, 3rd, and 6th) ... playing this EXACT SAME pattern would be playing passing notes, yes? or notes out of key but in mode? or what? i'm confused? Only knowing pentatonics and their positions, i'm familiar with moving to a different position and playin a DIFFERENT pattern ... but here you suggest 3 possible places (below the 12th fret, so there are SIX?) i could play the SAME pattern.
GUH?

Ok, let me try to make this make sense. And really I'm no expert on this stuff...I just have a decent idea about modes and how they relate to the major scale.

So let's look at C again:

C
D
E
F
G
A
B
C

I've bolded the 3 minor modes of C-major: D, E and A. On the low E string, let's look at those 3 notes the first time we come across them: 0 fret, 5th fret, and 10th fret. What happens when we play the fingering I laid out above on those 3 positions:

0-3 - 5-8 - 10-13
0-3 - 5-8 - 10-13
0-2 - 5-7 - 10-12
0-2 - 5-7 - 10-12
0-2 - 5-7 - 10-12
0-3 - 5-8 - 10-13

Translated to notes instead of frets:

E-G - A-C - D-F
B-D - E-G - A-B
G-A - C-D - F-G
D-E - G-A - C-D
A-B - D-E - G-A
E-G - A-C - D-F

All 3 positions can be played with the same fingering, but they all hit different notes (and get really interesting when you add in the passing notes which, again, are easy to find because C-maj has no sharps or flats). And when laid out like this, you can see ways of tying them together. For example take the G-string (which I use all the time to tie fingerings together and move to new positions. Man that sounds dirty...):

G-A - C-D - F-G

If I am playing around on A minor pentatonic (and in this case aeolian once I throw in some passing notes to differentiate it from A-min dorian or phrygian but we'll get there) and I start on the E string, 5th fret as my root fingering, I can noodle around for quite a while and sound great in a C-maj jam. But eventually I will get bored with that "boxed" A-minor pentatonic scale. I'll want more. So commonly what I will do is really start hammering in on that C-D on the 5th and 7th frets of the G string. i know that from that D, if I want to slide up to the next note in C-maj, I need to get to E, and if I want to get to the next minor pentatonic scale (with the same fingering) I need to slide up to F. So that gives me 2 choices. E, in this case, is a passing note to get to the next minor pentatonic fingering I am looking for. Often times I will go up to the E and then shoot past F to the G for a nice resolve (G, as the 5th note in the C major scale, or mixolydian mode, is a wonderful resolving note in C-maj...as good as C itself).

So just by being aware of where I am, and where the other 2, same, minor pentatonic fingerings in the key are, I can slide around and, with the same exact fingerings (i.e. ignoring passing notes) I can play around with very different effect. If you have a looper, throw a nice easy C-maj progression (Maybe D-min, G, C) into a loop and try each 3 positions with the same fingering and see how they sound different. If you are like me and you like using your ring finger on the G-string to bend the crap out of notes....try it in all 3 positions and you'll see it will have strikingly different effects on the feel of your solo.

[DriftingByTheStorm]

Hmm.
VERY interesting.
Honestly only had time to SKIM your post this morning, but i am gonna fuck around and ponder on this, guitar in hand, later this week. Off to go camping at the outer banks with girl and dog. Back friday morning.

Hope all you fellers have a good time frettin around while i'm gone.
gonna miss civilization ... but (baring a horrible bug problem) gonna be livin' it up, tent style.

Thanks bin for giving us all something to chew on.
Nice to be learning something again.