Skip to content
Gern Blansten wrote:thanks for the recommendation...looks like a good book
If you haven't read "Losing Faith in Faith" or "Godless" by Dan Barker I would recommend those to you....he was an evangelist turned atheist and now heads the Freedom from Religion Foundation http://www.ffrf.org
Ed's lyrics contain all kinds of those references
Marker in the Sand
just to name a few
fisttothejaw wrote:Well, again - I'm probably an idiot for continuing to stay within the fray... ha ha... but I felt the need to respond to this last post -
One of the things I hear time and time again is that we (believers) are intolerant, and that we don't allow for anyone else to have a belief system. And you know what? By and large, I think the religious community has, unfortunately, earned that tag. And vedderwt, I do agree with you that extremism can a very dangerous thing. Fundamentalists often feel so driven to be completely air-tight in their doctrine, and it causes them to ignore the grey area that humanity generally occupies. And when you follow someone who taught in stories, parables, and symbols, there's quite a bit of grey area that must be accounted for!
But, Vedderwt, you seem to be cautioning against labeling your own post as an "attack," and I have to admit that it's hard not to. When you refer to raising a child in a Christian upbringing as "child abuse," call faith the "complete opposite of truth," and indicate that belief in God is a "license to ignorance and... to cause...death and suffering," then you are laboring under an extremism of your own. While I understand that many generations of Christians have done and spoken hideous things, often in the name of their faith, surely you can dig deeply enough to understand that abuse, pain, avarice, torture - those things are not our core values. And when you point your guns at extremism, I'm right there with you. But when you label all people of faith as ignorant, abusive, manipulative, etc, then your bullets are hitting me. I kept reading your post thinking, "well, vedderwt is not necessarily talking about ME. These are extremists." But then I read this line: "you cannot seperate (sic) the extremists from the people who have the best intentions and who do live honorable, beautiful lives. This is a weakest link theory/thought, and the people that manipulate and seize power and wealth are protected by the entire system...you cannot seperate (sic) them." And then I realized, "shit, vedderwt is talking about me!"
As with anyone who is going to voice an opinion with great passion, you must consider the sweep of your generalizations. To assume that, because I am a believer who was raised by Christian parents, I have never experienced "questioning or self-inspection" - well, you couldn't be more wrong!! I am an extremely introspective, questioning person, and I've held my own belief system up to a harsh light, time and time again. I have had seasons (long ones!) where I've wondered whether there even is a God at all, and if I'm nuts for basing my life's decisions on such a mad concept. I've been embarrassed and offended by the positions taken by many high-profile Christians, and I've often wondered if I wanted to be associated with them. And not to be dramatic, but I've stood at the mass grave inside a concentration camp, filled mainly with the bodies of Jews and homosexuals, and deeply lamented the intolerance my fellow Christians have shown both those people groups. But at the end of my questions, fights, discussions, tears, and whiskey bottles, I have decided to believe in God and follow Jesus. Because I have read his teachings, I have studied his life, and I realize that he is not a fat, suit-wearing, Republican preacher with a wallet full of money and his hand on the ass of a congressman. He is the embodiment of love and understanding. I do not follow the "Christian right" like a lemming, mind you. I believe in God, and I follow Jesus. And I have to say, knowing what it's taken me, knowing the tremendous "pushback" I've experienced (both inside and outside of my own soul and mind), and then to be lumped into the category of the ignorant and the arrogant - well, it's hard not to find that a little insulting, frankly. I truly don't mind you questioning what I believe. I've done that myself time and time again!
With all of that said, fight on. Continue to express your dissatisfaction with the current status quo, as far as extremism is concerned. I think people of faith need to hear and absorb criticism, as the "pushback" is a vital part of their own refinement. And we must seek to heal the wounds our cause has caused. But all I ask is that you find a place in your heart to respect those who have passionately sought, passionately questioned, but who passionately believe.
MS7509 wrote:I am so okay with not knowing why we are here, how we got here or where we might go. I am so okay with thinking that when I die, I'm dead, that's it. I do not know that I have a soul, and I am so okay with that. We have only scratched the surface with human thought and technology and I'm sure that our scientific thinking about some of these big questions will develop and change significantly over time. Humans may never know the real answers and I find that beautiful. There is no logical explanation for the existence of a god or intelligent designer that cannot be overturned by the same logic. And if you find comfort, peace, solace or warmth in god or spiritualty, I am okay with that, too, as long as it is respectful, understanding and loving.
Seek My Part wrote:Why does everything have to be religious? Let me ask it again, why does everything have to be religious? Religion is an absolute. People who say they are one religion or another have just reached the point of never questioning anything or themselves again. They have already hit the end of the journey and have said that I am "this" or I am "that," and they want everyone else in the world to make a decision right now or else. They have to know. For what reason do they have to know. If it is out of curiosity than ok, but it never is. It is about "Are you with me or are you not?" The funny thing that with almost every religion (especially Christianity) the basis for that religion is accepting everyone and love. Religion should be personal and the whole community aspect of it causes people to feel a need to categorize themselves. Well, I personally think that deep down inside, Eddie and the rest of PJ are still on the journey. They have accepted some things as true in their minds, but have not made any absolute answers and have not categorized themselves. They respect the process of continuously added to their ideas of religion, spirituality, etc. What I think they do know for sure is that typical religious people are so set in their ways that they never evolve and are now so far behind reality . Yet, they accept you and don't categorize you. However, they are categorized for that as atheists or ant-religious. Well, if continuing to better yourself and to follow love and to never reach an absolute ending truth is anti-religious then "LETS' CATEGORIZE THEM AS ANTI-RELIGIOUS" and I be the first one to join them. Anti-religion is the new religion and we don't need anyone praying for us. Why don't you do something that is harder then praying for us and just accept us and try to challenge yourself to evolve.
Religious people are so afraid about how the world will end and if they are ready, when in fact they are the ones who may cause the world to end.
october22 wrote:walkthehemisphere wrote: But the cells were not happy just being cells, so they decided to become plants, trees, fish, animals and even people. I just want people to realize that the atheist view of creation sounds as much of a fairy tale as my belief in a supreme God who designed and created everything for a reason and purpose.
Again, to repeat, I think you're probably a well meaning guy. However, I have zero respect for your ideas or belief system because I believe you are an adult and not a child. Therefor, I must point out the absurdities of your ignorant and simple wish-thinking. I don't have all night to do so and there are much smarter men then I who've been writing rebuttals to the weak-minded for thousands of years on this topic so I'll just mention a few things that come to mind.
Firstly, in response to your quote above, cells were not unhappy being cells and so just "decided to become plants". This shows your ignorance towards science. You are probably one of those creationists who think science claims we "came from monkeys" (which is not what evolution claims at all). One of the beautiful facts of my argument is that I've studied yours and I can use your claims against you. You, however (and most of your ilk) are so sadly ignorant (a default position you would have to be in to allow yourself to be subjected to irrational belief) that you have no idea what you are arguing against. This is the first sign of the unprepared, anti-intellectual.
And so I ask you, what is more plausible; that single cells, through the use of DNA and RNA by way of the recombination of code understood in four parts A,T,C and G, EVOLVED over millions of years into other, more complex organisms or that a god, an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent being created ONE man and didn't have the fucking foresight to realize he would get LONELY and thus created him a woman to keep him company? So this all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful god's first plan was a fucking failure?
"Oh shit! I put this ONE guy in a garden with all this fruit and knowledge and other cool animals for him to hang out with but I never REALIZED he might get lonely! No, sweat, I'm god. I'll just take a rib and create a 'woman' for him to hang out with. I'm sure that will go well! What?! They ate the fucking fruit?! Shit! Didn't see that coming. But maybe I should have because after-all, I did give them free-will! Dammit, I knew that was going to bite me in the ass. Well, you know what, now you two are banned, that's right, get the fuck out. You've ruined it for everyone. What, the snake (aka Devil) made you do it? Hmmm, that's odd because the Devil is Lucifer, a soul I banished and sent to Hell, but wait a minute; if you two are the first souls I've created, then how the hell (pardon me) can there have been the life lived and then condemned of Lucifer's in the first place?!! Arg! This whole universe (although I never bothered to mention anything about a universe in the subsequent writings of the profits) I've created get's soooo dammed confusing sometimes!! And wait a minute. Bend over for a second, you two. What the fuck is that?! Are those assholes?! Who put those there?! I created you in my image! What are you doing with orafices meant to expel digested waste?! I don't "eat" and I most certainly do not "shit". But then again, I did REST (I get TIRED?) on that seventh day, which would imply the expulsion and therefor the reconstitution of energy so maybe I do consume and defecate. Oh, this is all becoming too much! Holy fuck, are those coccyx, appendicis and wisdom teeth as well?! Not to mention, Adam, why the hell do you have nipples?!!!"
I wonder if you laughed at this. You see, I used satire (the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize) to completely deflate your god. I did this while drunk and half asleep. Should I thank Him for the free will or should I thank Ms. Zing, my eight-grade English teacher? I'll let you decide that. In the mean time, I challenge you to argue cohesively (or incohesiveIy or non-cohesively, if you'd like) to satirize the scientific point of view with an ounce of humor. I bet you can't. In fact, I know you can't. And not ONLY because you probably don't know anything about it, but because there is nothing FUNNY about it. You see, all the silliness was thrown out of it. What science proves wrong about itself, it has the courage to expel. Understand that religion gave way to science. Just as alchemy gave way to chemistry and astrology gave way to astronomy. It is your belief system that can be mocked, not because it is just to pick on the weak but because it is right to expose the liar.
And therefor, I'm not tooting my own horn here by admitting the above rant of a rambling drunk is funny because afteral, it's not my story, it's yours.
Post Script: In your last post, you called evolution "the theory that couldn't become fact because nobody has ever proven it". Yet again you expose your ignorance to your opposition. You see, in science, we prefer the word "theory" because we hold the belief that an idea is only "fact" until it has been disproved. That is the beauty of the system. Nothing is absolute. There is still a chance, however remote, that the apple may fall UP. This is not to discount what we hold as theories to be weak or unsupported. In fact, it is quite the opposite. A theory only becomes so after much scrutiny and is always replaceable in the face of new evidence. If you were clever enough, you might see in such open-mindedness the opportunity for god to reveal himself to the atheist or person of science and in that case convert him or her. The beauty of science is that should such a "miracle" occur, our deductive reasoning would have no choice but to make of us converts. The problem with your argument (which is an argument man's been working on for thousands of years) is that it, as of yet, holds up quite poorly to the scrutiny of deductive reasoning, just as do the stories of Zeus, Isis, Humpty Dumpty and Three Little Pigs.
Gern Blansten wrote:Devote Myself wrote:"I'm not saying that believing in God makes you dumber. My hypothesis is that people with a low intelligence are more easily drawn toward religions, which give answers that are certain, while people with a high intelligence are more skeptical," says the professor. 
I pulled this from the article given : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosit ... telligence
And sadly enough, I find it true these days. I used to be a part of that crowd. I believed that I was too smart to believe in a myth. After all, I was valedictorian of my high school class and a biology major. (raised catholic, too, which really destroyed any notions I had of a real God.) I figured Mary probably got knocked up by Joseph and made up the whole angel visiting story to avoid certain death for premarital sex. I believed that a series of random genetic mutations caused bacterium to grow into plants and animals; first reptiles, then amphibians, then birds, then mammals. (although there is some confusion regarding birds descending from reptiles, too). I ate all it up and regurgitated it with straight A's. I could do whatever I wanted, not to be tied down by dogmatic morals. I ended up dropping out of college the first time around, so I could party full time. Spent almost 3 years drunk and high. And unfortunately empty. Nothing filled the emptiness.
Not until I faced my own pride and admitted defeat. Saw through the lies. Saw the world I had bought into and tried to create for myself.
They say christianity is the easiest religion to belong to. All you have to do is believe in your heart that Jesus was the son of God, died to make you right with God, and rose from the dead. And invite him to live through you and change you from the inside out.
In this intellectually driven world, this is one of the HARDEST things to do!
People assume you're unintelligent and simpleminded. (wrong) They think you blindly accept whatever the religious community tells you. (Which is also wrong) And they think that christians never question anything, which is also ridiculous. There are plenty of things in the Bible that I don't agree with. But I talk about it with God and ask him to show me why. There are plenty of things that I still haven't heard back about!
But I can accept that He/She is there. And if anything, my intelligence has improved without the beer and pot!
No one will know who was right and who was wrong until we die or the end comes, so there really isn't anymore I can say. I just encourage anyone who reads this to not be afraid to go against the grain. Search for truth. It has a way of revealing itself to those who aren't afraid to lay down their self images and start anew.
good stuff....I remember sitting in church when I first started having doubts (probably 15-16) and thinking..."couldn't there have been a better way for god to get the word out instead of torturing poor Jesus?" I mean come on....all it would take is some messages in the clouds or hell come down to earth and stomp a few people and we'll believe your story man!!
Evergreen wrote:I think Eddie stated his beliefs in a recent interview...
"Is there one book that you have read that has been life-changing for you?
Jennifer Coppertino, New York
One that jumps to mind is Cat’s Cradle by Kurt Vonnegut. He talks about being a humanist, about it being a little different from being an atheist, which had a profound effect on me. I ended up reading pretty much everything he wrote after that, two, three, four, five times. The only other author who’s had a similar effect has been Charles Bukowski, who opens your eyes to the fact that there’s beauty in everybody’s life. The life of someone on the lowest rung of the ladder is as colourful and meaningful, if not more, as some character in an F Scott Fitzgerald novel. So it makes you realize that we are all individuals and we all have something going on that is worthy of introspection and respect."
"You’ve been lined with David Lynch’s Transcendental Meditation movement; you’ve worn an Aleister Crowley t-shirt and you’ve stated that you’re an atheist. What do you personally believe in and how did you get there?
Stephan Rott, Germany
Well it changes! And I think we have to be flexible. Any belief system that is inflexible, closed off to other belief systems, is profoundly unhealthy. I also think that if you look at life as a long line of evolutionary changes that started billions of years ago, from little things crawling in the mud, and the you realise where we’ve got to now, that is a remarkable set of circumstances. There is more magic in that, for me, than someone creating the planet in six days and taking a day off. When you realize how long humanity has taken to get to this point, it makes you respect another person’s life in a deeper and broader sense. I wouldn’t’ think of killing anybody because their lineage goes back to the primordial seas, not because there’s some eye in the sky, looking out for how many commandments you’re going to break."
Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 3 guests
ICON LEGEND: Announcement | Sticky | Unread posts | No unread posts | Locked | Moved | Popular