Trayvon Martin

[gimmesometruth27]

the nra convention is in my fair city this weekend. 65,000 gun nuts are going to be in our convention center, and most of them no doubt will be packing some sort of heat.

my city has a huge problem with gun violence. way too many shootings and gun murders. some years it is as high or higher than chicago and detroit. i think it is pretty tasteless for them to come here.

i would be down there silently protesting with the rest of them but then come next week we might be discussing my own shooting...

[mikepegg44]

first off that is a horrible overstatement of the law. It isn't horrible beyond belief...but it is far from perfect. In order for it to promote gun violence it would say something like you are required to fire on someone. You must carry a gun and use it...that law would promote gun violence. this promotes self defense, but the vagueness does allow it to go too far.

Anyone have any stats on how many people were cleared or never charged because of this law?

as far as what mandatory arrest and grand jury would do...we shall see...Zimmerman appears to be going to trial and it looks like they had evidence beyond his testimony, which would kind of negate the idea that the only version of the story is that of the person claiming self defense.

no ... it IS horrible ... "justifiable" homicides TRIPLED since the law was put in place ... and it does promote gun violence because all one has to do is show that their well being was at risk and the only way to ensure that is to make sure the other person is dead ...

there are already laws in place to protect people who defend themselves ... part of the reasoning the police force let zimmerman go was because of this law ...

this law was lobbied for by the NRA ... why do you think they wanted it?

because the NRA's purpose is to give the right to people to murder anyone anytime for anything, obviously

Unless you know the specifics of all the cases you cannot claim that this law is allowing shitty people to go free. Simply saying that justifiable homicide cases increasing since 2005 isn't a necessary indication that more criminals are getting away with murder because of this law. couldn't it also be said that more innocent people are fighting back? isn't that a reasonable assumption as well if we are simply looking at statistics? Your statement which read " because ultimately this law is about making sure no one knows the truth of what happened" was an overstatement. and it still is. You are claiming this law's purpose is to make sure the truth isn't known. That is not the purpose.
It allows for more gun violence in self defense, it doesn't promote it. I agree it was an unnecessary law, it was too vague and should be tightened up.

[polaris_x]

because the NRA's purpose is to give the right to people to murder anyone anytime for anything, obviously

Unless you know the specifics of all the cases you cannot claim that this law is allowing shitty people to go free. Simply saying that justifiable homicide cases increasing since 2005 isn't a necessary indication that more criminals are getting away with murder because of this law. couldn't it also be said that more innocent people are fighting back? isn't that a reasonable assumption as well if we are simply looking at statistics? Your statement which read " because ultimately this law is about making sure no one knows the truth of what happened" was an overstatement. and it still is. You are claiming this law's purpose is to make sure the truth isn't known. That is not the purpose.
It allows for more gun violence in self defense, it doesn't promote it. I agree it was an unnecessary law, it was too vague and should be tightened up.

good grief man ... yeah, i despise the nra but nowhere have i ever alluded that their purpose is to give people the right to murder each other ... so, i'm not even going to respond to that besides what i just wrote ...

the stats speak for themselves ... how can you even speculate that the increase is based on more people protecting themselves!?? ... form the state-attorneys offices to the police - they all agree this law is horrible because they know first hand people are getting away with murder ...

[mikepegg44]

because the NRA's purpose is to give the right to people to murder anyone anytime for anything, obviously

Unless you know the specifics of all the cases you cannot claim that this law is allowing shitty people to go free. Simply saying that justifiable homicide cases increasing since 2005 isn't a necessary indication that more criminals are getting away with murder because of this law. couldn't it also be said that more innocent people are fighting back? isn't that a reasonable assumption as well if we are simply looking at statistics? Your statement which read " because ultimately this law is about making sure no one knows the truth of what happened" was an overstatement. and it still is. You are claiming this law's purpose is to make sure the truth isn't known. That is not the purpose.
It allows for more gun violence in self defense, it doesn't promote it. I agree it was an unnecessary law, it was too vague and should be tightened up.

good grief man ... yeah, i despise the nra but nowhere have i ever alluded that their purpose is to give people the right to murder each other ... so, i'm not even going to respond to that besides what i just wrote ...

the stats speak for themselves ... how can you even speculate that the increase is based on more people protecting themselves!?? ... form the state-attorneys offices to the police - they all agree this law is horrible because they know first hand people are getting away with murder ...

I am more asking how you can speculate that the increase is only due to what you claim? I just asked if it would be reasonable to assume something different because of the statistics shown. Apparently you believe it isn't, that the only assumption that can be made based on an increase in justifiable homicide cases is that people are getting away with murder. that is fine.
I agree with you that the law was unnecessary, that it is too vague. Which is why I made my comment about mandatory arrest in the first place. You seemed to think that mandatory arrest and grand jury would do nothing, I would disagree. I think it would have helped in this case and brought us to where we are today...holes in the story can only last so long without being exposed...But your statements read to me as, this law is the worst law ever because it PROMOTES the killing of innocent people. I don't think it does that.

and how else should I have taken your NRA comment? I am not a fan of the organization either and I am not sure why you threw that in there with a question mark. Why don't you tell me why they supported the law if you don't like my response.

[PJ_Soul]

how can you claim stand your ground when you are not on your property? he was out in the open. he was not defending his home or his property. he followed him to someone else's property, confronted him, which is not defensive mind you....initiating a confrontation is an act of offense, and by that rationale stand your ground can not be a defense in this case.

because the stand your ground law isn't only applicable to being at home ... you can pretty much flat out murder someone if you can prove your life was at risked ... this is usually done because the other person is dead ...

this doesn't really seem to be an argument against the law. Aren't you saying you can kill someone if you can prove your life was in danger?

If your life is in danger, deadly force is acceptable IMO.

Of course. The thing is, you don't need this law for that. It was already covered that killing an attacker to save you own life is self-defense and justifiable. I don't get why this law even exists. It just seems like it's practically made for people who kill people when they didn't need to. It really is a stupid law.

[Godfather.]

why are we debating the outcome of this case ? I guess it's worth a guess but we won't know till the gavel hits the wood and after that it won't matter what we thought but if Zimmerson gets off or gets off easy we will be debating equal rights and riots...wouldn't that be just peachy.. so I think I'll just watch FoxNews and wait for the fireworks that may or may not come. ..and about this law,I don't think many us will compleatly understan untill we are in a situation that we have to fight for our lives.

Godfather.

[polaris_x]

I am more asking how you can speculate that the increase is only due to what you claim? I just asked if it would be reasonable to assume something different because of the statistics shown. Apparently you believe it isn't, that the only assumption that can be made based on an increase in justifiable homicide cases is that people are getting away with murder. that is fine.
I agree with you that the law was unnecessary, that it is too vague. Which is why I made my comment about mandatory arrest in the first place. You seemed to think that mandatory arrest and grand jury would do nothing, I would disagree. I think it would have helped in this case and brought us to where we are today...holes in the story can only last so long without being exposed...But your statements read to me as, this law is the worst law ever because it PROMOTES the killing of innocent people. I don't think it does that.

and how else should I have taken your NRA comment? I am not a fan of the organization either and I am not sure why you threw that in there with a question mark. Why don't you tell me why they supported the law if you don't like my response.

mandatory arrest does nothing because in essence zimmerman was "arrested" ... he was brought into the police station for questioning ... the "stand your ground" law will make it very hard for the prosecution in this case ... there are numerous examples of how this law has resulted in people dying unnecessarily and the killers not held accountable ... again - it is why the state-attorney and police are vehemently opposed to this law ...

it is a horrible law because it promotes gun violence and taken away any accountability ...

the NRA's primary purpose is to promote gun ownership and freedom ... this law promotes gun ownership ...

http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2 ... bout-obama

[PJ_Soul]

why are we debating the outcome of this case ? I guess it's worth a guess but we won't know till the gavel hits the wood and after that it won't matter what we thought but if Zimmerson gets off or gets off easy we will be debating equal rights and riots...wouldn't that be just peachy.. so I think I'll just watch FoxNews and wait for the fireworks that may or may not come. ..and about this law,I don't think many us will compleatly understan untill we are in a situation that we have to fight for our lives.

Godfather.

... You aren't really going to watch all the coverage on FoxNews, are you?

[mikepegg44]

I am more asking how you can speculate that the increase is only due to what you claim? I just asked if it would be reasonable to assume something different because of the statistics shown. Apparently you believe it isn't, that the only assumption that can be made based on an increase in justifiable homicide cases is that people are getting away with murder. that is fine.
I agree with you that the law was unnecessary, that it is too vague. Which is why I made my comment about mandatory arrest in the first place. You seemed to think that mandatory arrest and grand jury would do nothing, I would disagree. I think it would have helped in this case and brought us to where we are today...holes in the story can only last so long without being exposed...But your statements read to me as, this law is the worst law ever because it PROMOTES the killing of innocent people. I don't think it does that.

and how else should I have taken your NRA comment? I am not a fan of the organization either and I am not sure why you threw that in there with a question mark. Why don't you tell me why they supported the law if you don't like my response.

mandatory arrest does nothing because in essence zimmerman was "arrested" ... he was brought into the police station for questioning ... the "stand your ground" law will make it very hard for the prosecution in this case ... there are numerous examples of how this law has resulted in people dying unnecessarily and the killers not held accountable ... again - it is why the state-attorney and police are vehemently opposed to this law ...

it is a horrible law because it promotes gun violence and taken away any accountability ...

the NRA's primary purpose is to promote gun ownership and freedom ... this law promotes gun ownership ...

http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2 ... bout-obama

I was wondering about how the NRA would tie in and you raise good points. Sorry for the overstatement earlier as I really wasn't sure at all where you were going...But, I think the NRA would be for the law more so because it "protects" those with conceal and carry permits...I don't think this law alone makes people want to go buy guns or get conceal and carry...The laws of my state did nothing to motivate my want for firearms.
I guess we will just have to disagree on the difference between promoting and allowing for...because it seems you won't budge from your assessment that it promotes behaviors, and I won't from mine that it allows for behaviors but does nothing to promote them. I wish there was a handshake emoticon

Don't forget about the Grand Jury as well, not just mandatory arrest. there is a difference. Mandatory arrest would leave it in the hands of the police only...a grand jury would open the door to much more scrutiny.
But I agree the vagueness of the law leaves doors open for unnecessary deaths. It is way too subjective.

[polaris_x]

fair enough ...

the NRA is out to promote the sale of guns ... it's the gun lobby ... they see regulation and restrictions as limitations to gun sales ... no different than air quality standards would affect the sale of gas ... the consequences of these lobbyists are irrelevant ... they don't care if more people die because they are only concerned with sales ...

and i am dismissing your mandatory arrest and grand jury simply because in many cases - these things have gone to trial and the outcome is killer goes free and taxpayers money went down the tubes, prosecutors are frustrated and cops are pissed ... south carolina is already looking to repeal their law ...

[Jason P]

no ... it IS horrible ... "justifiable" homicides TRIPLED since the law was put in place ...

They may have tripled because the law just changed the way a homicide was categorized from the past. It doesn't necessarily mean that it encourages homicides to take place.

[g under p]

why are we debating the outcome of this case ? I guess it's worth a guess but we won't know till the gavel hits the wood and after that it won't matter what we thought but if Zimmerson gets off or gets off easy we will be debating equal rights and riots...wouldn't that be just peachy.. so I think I'll just watch FoxNews and wait for the fireworks that may or may not come. ..and about this law,I don't think many us will compleatly understan untill we are in a situation that we have to fight for our lives.

Godfather.

Why is it that some of you think that they will be riots if the decision isn't sufficient to those who want a guilty verdict or some sort of punishment for Zimmerman? Most I believe will accept what comes out of this case and leave it where the the jury rules.

peace

[Godfather.]

why are we debating the outcome of this case ? I guess it's worth a guess but we won't know till the gavel hits the wood and after that it won't matter what we thought but if Zimmerson gets off or gets off easy we will be debating equal rights and riots...wouldn't that be just peachy.. so I think I'll just watch FoxNews and wait for the fireworks that may or may not come. ..and about this law,I don't think many us will compleatly understan untill we are in a situation that we have to fight for our lives.

Godfather.

Why is it that some of you think that they will be riots if the decision isn't sufficient to those who want a guilty verdict or some sort of punishment for Zimmerman? Most I believe will accept what comes out of this case and leave it where the the jury rules.

peace

history.

Godfather.

[Godfather.]

why are we debating the outcome of this case ? I guess it's worth a guess but we won't know till the gavel hits the wood and after that it won't matter what we thought but if Zimmerson gets off or gets off easy we will be debating equal rights and riots...wouldn't that be just peachy.. so I think I'll just watch FoxNews and wait for the fireworks that may or may not come. ..and about this law,I don't think many us will compleatly understan untill we are in a situation that we have to fight for our lives.

Godfather.

... You aren't really going to watch all the coverage on FoxNews, are you?

no not all of it

Godfather.

[polaris_x]

no ... it IS horrible ... "justifiable" homicides TRIPLED since the law was put in place ...

They may have tripled because the law just changed the way a homicide was categorized from the past. It doesn't necessarily mean that it encourages homicides to take place.